Just Intonation Suggestions

[Paul Groff]

Hi Frank,

 

Since you don't seem to mind the sound of harmonies in equal temperament, this discussion may indeed seem interesting to you only "from an academic point of view." But to many musicians (and many of these completely unschooled in music theory) it's just about the very practical, visceral issue of how beautiful the music sounds.

 

I think the point of Chris's question and of his plans so far is that he would like his concertina to recreate the tuning of the Irish pipes, with a view to emulating the moving, pure and resonant harmonies that he hears in the music of Willie Clancy and others. Whether you are a good player or a bad player and whether you play with other musicians or not, harmonies on the concertina will not sound like the characteristic harmonies created on the Irish pipes if the concertina is in equal temperament. The points you raise are not really relevant to his aim.

 

Of course, the concertina is not the pipes. There are things the pipes can do that the concertina cannot, and vice-versa. So in my personal view the tuning that seems to be preferred for the Irish pipes (we might say that this is in fact the "standard" for THAT instrument) may not be the ideal for concertinas, even they are used in playing Irish music.

 

But it is significant that many concertina players do prefer the sound of thirds that are pure (or purer than in ET), when they have a chance to hear them, as Theo and others have noted. The harsh thirds of ET to which many of us grew accustomed while learning music from pianos, etc., are even more offensive to a sensitive ear when played on the concertina (especially in its treble range), compared with most instruments.

 

These thirds can be dramatically improved, at least in a core group of preferred keys, by use of any of the alternative tunings or temperaments that have been discussed in this thread (excluding equal temperament and "Pythagorean tuning"). And as mentioned in previous threads, the meantone temperaments actually seem to be original and perhaps formative for the early history of the English-fingering concertina, and have a special role in playing some of the repertoire for that instrument.

 

To single out Colin Dipper's melodeon in the context of this discussion suggests that, today, deviations from equal temperament are few or anomalous. But in fact, leaving aside whole genres such as cajun music, a good number of the best players of free reed instruments use instruments in non-ET tunings and temperaments as an important part of their sound (see for example Peter Laban's comments above). Yet beautiful harmony need not be restricted to the best musicians. Any concertinist who uses chords can benefit from having the thirds sweetened, from his or her first day of playing.

 

There will continue to be an important role for equal temperament, especially for those who can and do play in all 12 keys on the same instrument. But for the concertinists whose playing is concentrated in a few keys and their modes (probably most of us), there are many tuning options that will sweeten the thirds considerably.

 

Paul

[RP3]

I do not have the technical knowledge to discuss this subject as do Paul and others, but I must agree wholeheartedly with Paul's position about the enjoyment of the harmonies offered by unequal temperment.

 

I have three concertinas: two tuned in equal temperment, and one tuned in unequal temperment. Sessions and similar group playing situations may not offer much opportunity to appreciate the differences between the two types of tuning. However, when I play alone or in quiet group settings, I very much appreciate the sweeter chords offered by the unequal temperment tuning -- and so do the others in the group.

 

It seems that people (musicians included) don't know what they are missing until they have a chance to hear the difference for themselves. So to quote a favorite old TV ad, "Try it, you'll like it!"

 

Ross Schlabach

[allan atlas]

FOLKS: there is another factor that must be considered: not only will triads (thus with thirds) sound harsh or not harsh on the concertina depending on the temperament, but one should consider the "voicing" of the chords. . . . . .my own ear finds tightly spaced chords terribly offensive. . . . .they're much "sweeter" when played in an "open" position. . . . . . .look at the music of Regondi. . . . .his ear was right on the mark..............allan

[Chris Allert]

... of course this is all specified far more accurately than a concertina can be tuned.

Or any other instrument for that matter ...

 

unless its a midi concertina... (as long as its not controlling an analog synthesizer)

[Stephen Chambers]

... of course this is all specified far more accurately than a concertina can be tuned.

Or any other instrument for that matter ...

unless its a midi concertina... (as long as its not controlling an analog synthesizer)

Are they really accurate to three decimal points of a hundredth of a semitone ?

 

(Electronic tuners are normally only accurate to within ± 1 cent.)

Edited October 20, 2005 by Stephen Chambers

[Chris Allert]

... of course this is all specified far more accurately than a concertina can be tuned.

Or any other instrument for that matter ...

unless its a midi concertina... (as long as its not controlling an analog synthesizer)

Are they really accurate to three decimal points of a hundredth of a semitone ?

 

(Electronic tuners are normally only accurate to within ± 1 cent.)

 

i would guess not. i probably should have made a few of those faces you're making along with my comment. but i couldn't find the right one.

[Frank Edgley]

Paul, I agree with what you have said. I am coming from another direction. I did say that the type of tuning is great when playing solo, but would not necessarily be the best when playing with others who would probably be playing with equal tempered instruments (e. flues, whistles accordions, pianos, guitars). I guess the whole situation depends on what kind of music and who, if anyone, you will be playing with. No, I don't especially like the sound of thirds, and I tend to stay away from them. I also play Northumbrian pipes. I have a 9 key set, but 18 key sets are available. This enables you to play in any key with a range of a couple of octaves. The beauty of the pipes is with the drones. Every note of the melody should blend perfectly with the drones. If done well, it produces a beautiful effect. If the extra accidentals (on an 18 keyed set) are tuned to also blend with the drones, the tune (not in the home keys) sounds quite strange the further from the home keys (C & F) you go, and is not pleasant when played with other instruments. If tuned in equal temperament, the drones clash horribly. This is one reason (apart from expense & maintenance considerations) Northumbrian pipes are usually made with only 7 keys, and play in a limited number of keys. I see a similar situation with concertinas.

Edited October 20, 2005 by Frank Edgley

[Paul Groff]

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks for the clarification. In view of your prestige as a player, teacher, tuner and maker, I was concerned that some would read your comments as a dismissal of any practical utility for non-ET tuning. So I felt I had to launch a tough defense of our discussion here up to that point!

 

I also agree with what you have just written, and was just about to post:

 

 

Allan,

 

(re: open chord voicings)

 

An excellent point, though these aspects of harmony/orchestration could be a thread in their own right.

 

Due to the additional distance between their fundamentals (and thus between their partials), major and minor sixths (in a sense, "inverted thirds") will tend to sound better than major and minor thirds on the concertina, and "tenths" better yet. But in each of these cases, when playing the same interval and voicing, a concertina tuned with thirds pure (or narrower than in ET) will sound much warmer and less harsh/buzzy than will a concertina tuned to ET.

 

On many concertinas, when playing thirds in the second octave above middle c, the "difference tones" (that can be heard as additional notes combined with the ones intended) are very audible. In ET these come in as extra notes that are grossly out-of-tune with the two notes of the third, and make such thirds almost unusable musically. In 1/4 comma meantone however, the thirds are glorious, all the way up.

 

On the other hand, the fifths in 1/4 comma meantone are pretty active, maybe even harsh to many ears. If your style emphaizes harmonies in fifths and you never play thirds, ET might really be a better option than 1/4 comma.

 

I personally would hate to play the concertina without the option of adding thirds, sixths, and tenths

 

"Just tuning" (when you are playing in the keys in which the tuning really gives just intervals) gives you both (some) fifths and (some) major thirds that are uncompromised, and the sound that results can really spoil your ears... This may be one reason many Irish pipers are so loyal to the wonderful sound of their instrument, and why some actually resent having to play with instruments tuned to ET. BTW I have encountered pipers who are surprised that my non-ET concertinas do not clash with their music as much as they might usually expect.

 

More food for thought, in the context of Chris’s project

 

Paul

[JimLucas]

...i was trying to base this on earlier comments about how pipes are tuned and i'm not really worried about intervals that wouldn't be played together on the regulators in irish music.

Are all uilleann pipes really tuned exactly the same? Are there no unpleasant clashes when two or more sets of pipes play together?

 

...of course this is all specified far more accurately than a concertina can be tuned.

Which reminds me of something I have experienced with some concertinas: 2 reeds an octave apart which seem out of tune when played sequentially seem to be perfectly in unison when played together. This suggests to me that some mechanism is producing a coupling between the vibrations of the two reeds, causing them to affect each other, drawing each slightly off its resonant peak to a compromise in which the two together form a stronger resonance than the sum of their individual contributions. I believe I've noticed the same effect, though maybe weaker, with fifths.

 

Has anyone else noticed this? Is there a reasonable explanation?

 

My original thought was that perhaps the reed pan, combined with the tight fit of the reed frames, was providing the coupling, but reeds an octave apart are not in the same reed pan, so that can't be it.

 

in addition to major and minor triads being beat-free, all intervals relative to the drones are also beat-free

??? Against a D drone, how does one define a "beat-free" Eb, or even E? Aren't such intervals normally considered to be "dissonant", with the concept of beats being irrelevant?

[Guest Peter Laban]

Are all uilleann pipes really tuned exactly the same? Are there no unpleasant clashes when two or more sets of pipes play together?

 

No they are not, far from it and yes there can be but not if they behave and are tuned well (and the players adjust their intonation to eachother on the fly)

 

 

??? Against a D drone, how does one define a "beat-free" Eb, or even E? Aren't such intervals normally considered to be "dissonant", with the concept of beats being irrelevant?

 

Not necessarily, E can be made to play a perfect non dissonant harmony on the pipes. ANyone who has heard pipemaker Geoff Wooff play his own instrument on a good day will have heard so and will also know him playing high a into a BG chord on the regulators (against the D drone) and octave E into af on the regs, again over the drones, creating a great sense of tension but not of dissonance. I admit, it takes a while to sink in properly.

[Paul Groff]

Hi Jim,

 

All interesting points, but the tuning of octaves particularly interests me.

 

It is certainly possible for two reeds of a concertina that are an octave apart to sound out-of-tune and to beat when played together. So if there is some kind of physical coupling that brings the pitch of the two reeds together, it does not always function.

 

Maybe what you have noticed is due to the different effects of changing pressure on pitch, for reeds at different pitches. Because of this, there is usually only one bellows pressure (light, medium, strong, etc.) at which two reeds an octave apart can be tuned beatless. If the octaves are set true for medium pressure, then at high pressure the low reed will usually go "flatter" than the higher reed, and at low pressure the low reed will be "sharper" than the higher reed.

 

I think that a lot of the art in concertina tuning has to do with the choice of the exact bellows pressures used to set each set of the octaves true. This choice might be influenced by the stiffness of the reeds, the bellows, the response of the action, the weight of the instrument -- and of course the style of the player. Obviously no matter how fancy an electronic tuner you use, and no matter how delicate your filing, there is no substitute for the touch of a player when it comes to this aspect of tuning.

 

Some sensitive players, especially if playing in situations where they are playing sustained tones and can hear themselves very well, will naturally tend to adjust the pressure as they play various octaves, to bring them into tune. But if these octaves have been set to uneven or inappropriate pressures, this makes extra work, and likelihood of error, for the player.

 

On the other hand, a concertina whose tuning has been really well-balanced (from this point of view) may even help the player to keep the octaves in tune.

 

Another possible explanation for your observation is that some people seem to prefer very high-pitched sounds to be a little sharp of "true," from a mathematical point of view, especially when played sequentially with other pitches. That is, what sounds "in tune" to them is a high reed that is actually sharp and would beat against the next octave down if they were played simultaneously. I think, but am not sure, that this issue is distinct from the issue of "inharmonicity" that is involved in "stretching" the octaves when tuning pianos.

 

At least in the realms of folk and traditional musical styles I think there is a lot of room for more research on these subjects.

 

 

Paul

[Frank Edgley]

PAUL: "I think that a lot of the art in concertina tuning has to do with the choice of the exact bellows pressures used to set each set of the octaves true... Obviously no matter how fancy an electronic tuner you use, and no matter how delicate your filing, there is no substitute for the touch of a player when it comes to this aspect of tuning."

FRANK: Exactly, tuning is as much an art as a science. I once had a very notable Irish player travel to Windsor to have his concertina tuned for an upcoming recording. I made the mistake of having him play each note so that I could take readings for tuning. When I had finished the tuning I found that it was not well in tune, and I had to redo it, playing the instrument, myself, to get the readings. It was then it tune. The owner of the instrument, in spite of being a world class player, was playing the notes at different pressures, throwing my readings off. This is, perhaps, the most important single factor when tuning. Most people can file a reed to make it sharper & flatter, but it is an art to play the notes at a moderate & consistent pressure to do a really good job.