Valve sizes

[BrokenBox]

Firstly, thank you to everyone who gave advice on replacing gaskets.  Attached is a photo of my efforts; single length of chamois. joint along an edge, wheat glue. Chuffed!

Secondly, you will notice all the valves are in a poor state. I used a protractor to measure the width at the root, width at the tip and the length (to the nearest 0.5mm) and there are 24 different sizes of valve in total. Does there need to be this many? I am thinking of rationalising the number as I cannot see that an extra mm or two at the glued down end would make any difference.  Similarly an extra mm on the width; as long as it doesn't foul the chamber wall will it make any difference?

I notice The Concertina Maintenance Manual gives 6 sizes of Wheatstone valve.  Four of these sizes cover all my valve dimensions bar one, which sounds a much more sensible number.
Any suggestions on where to get new valves and what glue to use?

Thank you!

[Rod Pearce]

I would go with the sizes shown in the Concertina Maintenance Manual.

 

Sources in the UK include:

Concertina-Spares.co.uk, but the proprieter Mark can be difficult to get hold of. The website can be accessed, but you can't order using it at present  as it is 'closed'

 

https://concertina-spares.com/product/valves/?v=3a52f3c22ed6 , you can order individual valves or kits.

 

You can find details for getting hold of Mark on the contact page. If you send Mark an email he will respond but can take a few days.

 

Alternatively you can get them from https://www.cacornish.co.uk,

 but I have not used them myself

 

 

Edited April 25 by Rod Pearce

[BrokenBox]

Thanks @Rod Pearce, I emailed concertina-spares a while ago but didn't get a reply.  C A Cornish have sent me a list which seems to fit the bill.  My only issue is I have to specify the "substance" I require for the valve and the pad facing.  I'll have to work out what that means...

[Rod Pearce]

Have a look at this thread. It contains several references to CA Cornish

 

 

 

[BrokenBox]

Yes, I saw that thread and rang C A Cornish and spoke to Lynda.  She said she had to change the grade of leather for valves as the supply dried up which probably post dates the thread.  I'll be ordering a full set of valves and pads once I've sorted out what i need. 

[4to5to6]

Good thread... I'm also searching for a source of very thin valve leather to make small valves for very high reeds. 

 

Theses notes work without them but valves increase the air efficiency, chamber size consistency and reduce the breathiness of the note.  All good things as long as volume and responsiveness is not reduced.

[BrokenBox]

I'm currently trying to work out how thin the leather should be.  If anyone with more experience wants to give me a reality check, it would be appreciated.  As far as I can tell, with my micrometer, protractor and ruler, I need the following:

10 x 15mm valves, 0.2mm thick

44 x 19mm valves, 0.3mm thick

32 x 23mm valves, 0.4mm thick

8 x 25mm valves, 0.45mm thick

2 x 29mm valves, 0.45mm thick

My intention is to cut some down as the existing valves are slightly smaller than standard in some cases.

I will glue them with Button Polish, left out to thicken up, per a previous thread. (I.e. shellac.)

I also want to re-pad and will specify 0.4mm leather for the facing, unless anyone knows different?

As Cornish do not sell the small circle of leather that goes on top of the pad I am thinking to buy a piece of 0.5mm leather and cut discs with a standard paper punch as this would be virtually the same diameter as the existing leather circles.

Does this all make sense?  Having no experience, I don't know if I'm measuring squashed leather and should be specifying thicker?

It is for a 48 key Rock Chidlley (budget model) EC.

[AndyNT]

In my limited experience (tried it once!), ordinary paper punches do not cut nice clean discs from thin leather. You'd be better off investing a fiver buying a leather punch of the correct diameter from ebay or similar.

[BrokenBox]

Thanks @AndyNT. Forwarned is forearmed; I'll order one!

[wschruba]

Not sure of the availability over the pond, but General makes reasonably priced punch sets, and Osborne is always an option that can typically be found used at a reasonable price.  If you can find a revolving punch with a 1/4" die, that can work for other small stuff, too.

[Rod Pearce]

11 hours ago, BrokenBox said:

I'm currently trying to work out how thin the leather should be.  If anyone with more experience wants to give me a reality check, it would be appreciated.  As far as I can tell, with my micrometer, protractor and ruler, I need the following:

10 x 15mm valves, 0.2mm thick

44 x 19mm valves, 0.3mm thick

32 x 23mm valves, 0.4mm thick

8 x 25mm valves, 0.45mm thick

2 x 29mm valves, 0.45mm thick

 

When I have bought valves for 20 and 30 key Anglos and 48 key English, they have been from the same source and the individual valves were effectively the same for all types. So the thickness doesn't seem to be model specific. That said, the thickness are different to those you are quoting. I have just measured a number of spare valves I have, with the following average results

15mm 0.3mm

19mm 0.4mm

23mm 0.6mm

25mm 0.6mm

29mm 0.8mm

35mm 1.0mm

 

11 hours ago, BrokenBox said:

As Cornish do not sell the small circle of leather that goes on top of the pad I am thinking to buy a piece of 0.5mm leather and cut discs with a standard paper punch as this would be virtually the same diameter as the existing leather circles.

 

These leather discs are referred  to as Sampers. Get yourself a 7mm punch as suggested by AndyNT, there are plenty on the internet.

[BrokenBox]

Thank you @Rod Pearce, that is most useful!  I'm measuring very worn valves so I wondered is they may have started a bit thicker. The concertina is mostly brass reeds, which I believe may require thinner valves than steel reeds, but I've never worked on a concertina before so I am feeling my way as  I go and any reference values are really helpful.

Do you have a thickness for your sampers and also for the leather layer of the pads, by any chance? My sampers measured at 0.5mm which seems very thin although the pads are quite flexible to a couple of degrees from the horizontal.

[4to5to6]

A big part in the voicing the instrument is selecting the correct valves.  A heavy valve causes the reed to be quieter for example which can be a good thing with an over bearing low register.  Setting the reed tongue gap lower will also have this affect.  The trade off is with the responsiveness of the note.  Also, even brand new valves may need to be changed a few times to find one that works correctly especially on very low bass notes.  Who needs that blurpy sound with pops.  I’m still learning myself mostly through trial and error but it is going well.

[alex_holden]

Regarding sampers: I make mine from offcuts of the black goatskin I use for bellows because I always have plenty of it spare. It's fairly soft and about 0.9mm thick. If it has a glossy surface finish, sand it down slightly to remove the finish before you punch the discs out, or glue won't stick to it very well. I use 7mm diameter discs for most pads, though I also make some 8.5mm ones for extra large pads.

[RAc]

I ordered a batch of valves from Juergen Suttner a few years ago and received them promptly after payment. I do not know if he is still active, but there is no indication on his homepage that he quit his business. If he has in fact stopped making concertinas, he may still sell spare parts.

 

Best of luck!

 

[Chris Ghent]

For people in reach of continental europe it might be worth checking out this German company herzogleather.com 

 

In their catalogue they list lamb valve leather intended for organ builders in several thicknesses. 
 

If you are going to your local leather place ask them if they stock cabretta leather.  This is hair sheep, usually used for wallets or gloves. Oh, and concertina valves.