Comparing the timbre of different Anglo concertinas

[Paul Pereyda Karayan]

As a former player of English Horn & Oboe I've been absolutely entranced by what feels like a related warmth that some anglo concertinas get - and I struggle to express it. So wanted to ask your help here.

 

I've heard a couple of terms used, and wanted to ask about this almost like it's a continuum from a Jeffries to Wheatstone (especially Linota)... so perhaps

Jeffries end  bright, clear, honky 

Wheatstone end: warm, mellow, smooth, round, sweet

 

Is that a tragic oversimplification or a useful one? Is there better vocabulary to use to describe the instruments sound, which I've just simplified to calling Timbre without any real knowledge?

 

---- nerdy stuff below ----

 

i did attempt with again no background in spectral analysis to use a couple of tools to attempt to quantify this with some of the samples i have... Spectral Centroid and Spectral Flatness being the chief components, though I have no idea how to normalise properly for different recording conditions:

https://github.com/paulkarayan/honkstats/tree/pk/nonormal

 

Edited March 4 by Paul Pereyda Karayan
remove distracting terms

[Peter Laban]

13 minutes ago, Paul Pereyda Karayan said:

Jeffries end (also have heard this called "Clare") : bright, clear, honky 

Wheatstone end (or "East Clare"): warm, mellow, smooth, round, sweet

 

Is that a tragic oversimplification or a useful one? Is there better vocabulary to use to describe the instruments sound, which I've just simplified to calling Timbre without any real knowledge?

 

 

 

I think the 'Clare' vs 'East Clare' terminology is fatally flawed.

[Paul Pereyda Karayan]

sure - how about i remove that so its not a distraction - though i'm quite interested that isnt what i'm trying to get an answer to here

[Lappy]

Don’t remove it! It is an interesting question which also applies equally well to open back banjos. Timbre is an elegant term that covers a spectrum of sounds. My first thought was that the same concertina that you’ve had for years will sound different (have a different timbre?) depending on what tune you’re playing and how you feel from day to day. That’s the beginning and end of my “psychological assessment”. LOL!

[Jody Kruskal]

Hi Paul, you say "As a former player of English Horn & Oboe I've been absolutely entranced by what feels like a related warmth that some anglo concertinas get"

 

Timbre only a small part of what you are hearing. I bet expressive musicality and articulation play a larger role in creating the sounds you are responding to.

 

All concertinas, not just Anglos, are a collection of independent reeds and reed chambers that all work together to make one instrument. How the instrument is designed, serviced, adjusted and voiced can maximize expressive and articulation options for the player.

 

A big part of articulation is how responsive the reeds are. A low end, red, cheap instrument from Germany, Italy or China will play slower than a fine handmade expensive model. I don't mean a slower tempo of music, but rather how much latency there is between the players impulse and the vibration entering the ear. The faster the articulation the better.

 

Expression means a number of things but the most important is volume or dynamics. The best instruments have the widest dynamic range. My Jefferies will play from a scream to a whisper and make that change from loud to soft fluidly and quickly. My Bastari has a much narrower dynamic range. Not quite as loud and severely lacking in it's ability to play quietly. The wider the dynamic range the better, with greater expression. playing a note like this < > is more expressive than this _____.

 

Double reeds like the English Horn & Oboe excel at offering the player opportunities for articulation and expression, just like a good Anglo, played by a master. I think that's what you are hearing and responding to, rather than timbre.

 

In some large ensemble situations, I think my Jefferies sounds like a trumpet.

[Ken_Coles]

I find, as some others have in the past, that words fail in describing how different concertinas sound. Jody is on to something - articulation is important in the hands of a skilled player. Spectral analysis will shed some light certainly, but the environment in which one plays and the complexities of the human hearing system are also factors, I suspect.

 

Ken

(played trumpet for years, so far, no concertina reminds me of one )

[Tiposx]

We might as well "dance about architecture" 

No disrespect intended.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Thinking on the sound quality in terms of resonance, depends of course upon your setting you play in..which in my situation is often in a small room which absorbs most potential reverberation , and makes the sounds seem very hatd edged. Whereas in another room ( tiles on wall) lino in floor little furnishing, it echoes nicely!

When I record tunes I have to sometimes therefore add a subtle resonance to the audio track itself, after recording, just enough to lift the sound.

[Dimble]

22 hours ago, Paul Pereyda Karayan said:

As a former player of English Horn & Oboe I've been absolutely entranced by what feels like a related warmth that some anglo concertinas get - and I struggle to express it. So wanted to ask your help here.

 

I've heard a couple of terms used, and wanted to ask about this almost like it's a continuum from a Jeffries to Wheatstone (especially Linota)... so perhaps

Jeffries end  bright, clear, honky 

Wheatstone end: warm, mellow, smooth, round, sweet

 

Is that a tragic oversimplification or a useful one? Is there better vocabulary to use to describe the instruments sound, which I've just simplified to calling Timbre without any real knowledge?

 

Paul, I share your sentiment that there might be a useful, if perhaps subjective way of talking about concertina tone. I even started a thread to explore the topic. I got a similar response as your seeing. I think that although a useful way of talking about timber must be possible, it doesn't yet exist.

 

 

22 hours ago, Paul Pereyda Karayan said:

 

[Anglo-Irishman]

On 3/4/2025 at 9:40 PM, Jody Kruskal said:

Timbre only a small part of what you are hearing.

Good point!

Just to put it in perspective, consider this:

If you make a recording of an instrument just playing a long note - not a tune, no harmonising instruments with it - a person with reasonable musical experience hearing the recording will be able to distinguish the "timbres" of oboe, clarinet, violin, accordeon, concertina, etc. playing the same note. If, however, you erase the first fraction of a second of the recordings, the instruments are indistinguishable from one another. Because what makes the character of an instrument's sound, or timbre, is the "attack" - once the note is sounding, it's just sound.

I thought this was a bit far-fetched when I first heard it, but then I found an example of it. I have a recording of Django Reinhardt (guitar) and Stephane Grapelli (violin) with the Hot Club de France. At one point, one of them starts a solo, but because the rhythm guitars cover over the attack of the notes, it takes a bar or two before you can definitely tell that it's a guitar solo.

This is relevant only in a recording context. In a live music situation, I can see whether the guitatist or the violinist is playing the solo!

Cheers,

John

[LR71]

On 3/4/2025 at 11:17 AM, Peter Laban said:

I think the 'Clare' vs 'East Clare' terminology is fatally flawed.

 

Are people really classifying things like that?  I own more than a few recordings and have the book on Chris Droney, Music in a Breeze of Wind.  Nothing mentioned about schools of hexagon model.  You're right in the middle of things, though.  Do people seriously shop for a Wheatstone to sound like Noel? 

 

I mean, his students here in America reflexively buy Carrolls, much like a flute player who wants to be M Molloy buys a Pratten's Perfected.  I've played a few Carrolls, and owned a Wheastone, and will just always prefer the sound of a Jeffries, or rather my Kensington. 

[Peter Laban]

18 hours ago, LR71 said:

 

Are people really classifying things like that?  I own more than a few recordings and have the book on Chris Droney, Music in a Breeze of Wind.  Nothing mentioned about schools of hexagon model.  You're right in the middle of things, though.  Do people seriously shop for a Wheatstone to sound like Noel? 

 

 

I have never heard those terms used to describe a particular timbre of an instrument and I don't think their use will withstand scrutiny.

 

Chris Droney played a Linota  didn't  he? I would not describe his sound  as  'warm, mellow, smooth, round, sweet'. Francis Droney plays Jeffries instruments to play a similar style.

 

I could  think of several East Clare players playing Jeffries instruments  including, on occasion, Mary MacNamara (IIRC).

 

I think in a lot of cases  the person doing the driving is at least as important as the instrument they are playing when it comes to the overall effect you are hearing.

 

I do think some people will look for a particular make of instrument, hoping to sound like their favourite player. The competitive crowd (and their mothers) are always pursuing the instrument last year's winner played, hoping to get the upper hand.

 

I saw Noel Hill two or three weeks ago and he played three different concertinas on the night. None of them Wheatstone.  And guess who he sounded like  😶

 

 

 

Edited March 6 by Peter Laban

[LR71]

The chief thing I always thought Wheatstones had was a nasal quality, not "warm, mellow, smooth, round, sweet." Not a bad sound, just different.  Noel and Chris Droney definitely seemed to show that sound, or Liam O'Brien.  Carrolls are modeled after Linotas, and sound much like them to my ears.  Others have mentioned that somewhat nasal quality.

 

Did Noel play a Carroll?  I've read he was playing them in concert in the past.  He has that teeny tiny Jeffries.  But now has a teeny tiny Dipper.

 

I sold Noel my Wheatstone.  He played the bajeezus out of it first, my jaw dropped.  I'd always found getting music out of it generally painful.  He found a student for it, without doubt. 

 

The big example of a musician creating their sound I always think of is Tommy Peoples.  I mean, you can't buy a "Tommy Peoples fiddle," that's beyond absurd. 

[Paul Pereyda Karayan]

On 3/6/2025 at 7:32 AM, Peter Laban said:

 

I could  think of several East Clare players playing Jeffries instruments  including, on occasion, Mary MacNamara (IIRC).

 

 

 

 

 

It's a jeffries on her album covers! what does she normally play, do you know? @Peter Laban

Edited March 8 by Paul Pereyda Karayan

[Peter Laban]

On 3/8/2025 at 12:32 AM, Paul Pereyda Karayan said:

 

It's a jeffries on her album covers! what does she normally play, do you know? @Peter Laban

 

Even on the first one? She played Wheatstones on that recording. Or that's what I seem to remember.

 

To be honest I wouldn't normally  pay a lot of attention to what make of  instrument someone is playing unless it stands out one way or another.

 

Here's a brief 'humours of Mary' gallery. All relatively recent (last five years or so). I thought I had pics of her playing other instruments  but in the majority of the recent ones  she's playing the same one and I didn't feel like going back further into the archive. So there may be an answer there.

 

On the night with Breandan Begley she played other ones but the photos aren't any good, there was a low pitched Seven Mount on loan for the night anyway. On another occasion there was an old German involved but the music stand was too much in the way to get a shot so a different one below from the same occasion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 10 by Peter Laban

[Paul Pereyda Karayan]

super cool @Peter Laban - thank you! 

I did get a hold of her and she says I play jefferies concertinas. I have a C/G and a Bflat/F

 

[jwinship]

No doubt Mary MacNamara plays Jefferies concertinas.

 

Peter Laban is correct in remembering that her first album, from 1994, had a Wheatstone on the cover.  Jackie Small's liner notes say that her father gave her a C/G Wheatstone "and this has been her principal instrument ever since".  He says that the other instrument on the album is a C#/G#, pitched almost a full octave lower, made by Wheatstone in 1911:  "Low in pitch and volume, it has a rich, warm tone which provides a wonderful vehicle for Mary's intimate style".  I thought I'd better throw in that subjective timbre description to justify posting this message in a timbre thread.