What other English concertinas have hollow buttons

[bellowbelle]

I know that Bastari/Stagi (now Concertine Italia) have the hollow buttons.  

 

I also play my Morse concertinas, which have solid buttons. 

 

Are there other EC makers that use the hollow buttons? 

 

[alex_holden]

Wheatstone, Dipper, Wakker, Suttner, and myself (possibly others) make buttons that are a thin metal cap over a wooden or plastic core.

 

Lachenal made buttons that were solid metal with a hole bored in them, then a metal disc soldered over the hole.

[David Barnert]

2 hours ago, alex_holden said:

Lachenal made buttons that were solid metal with a hole bored in them, then a metal disc soldered over the hole.

 

So that might be described as hollow?

[alex_holden]

1 hour ago, David Barnert said:

So that might be described as hollow?

 

It seems to fit the dictionary definition.

[bellowbelle]

Maybe "hollow" isn't an accurate description of the Stagi (etc) buttons. I'm not sure what it looks like under the buttons and I probably won't be taking my instruments apart anytime soon.  But they are very different from the more solid buttons of the Morse concertinas. 

 

I know that the Morse buttons and those of other concertinas are said by some to be so much better than the "hollow" ones.  Having played both, yes, I can understand that claim...and it's probably true for some players. But! 

 

Because I have some hand trouble I can play the Stagi (Concertine Italia, etc) for a longer time without my fingers getting sore.  The "hollow" buttons lessen the impact. My fingers hurt more after playing the Morse for too long. 

 

And, I think there's a difference in how to play each different type of concertina.  I sounded terrible on the Stagi after playing the Morse, at first. But then after some time I was more familiar with the differences and now it sounds better.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I made just one button myself out of soild alloy core ..never used it..but here it is🌝😊

 

 

 

[Matthew Heumann]

I'm not so sure hollow vs solid is the issue with hurting fingers. I find that the design of the button (narrow vs broad, flat top vs round top, high vs low profile) and spring tension have much more to do with finger fatigue or tenderness. I own each of the types mentioned and do not find button composition to be the issue at all. Another factor is the button stem padding at the bottom, if its to compressed it will not absorb the impact. Contrary to popular belief, loose sloppy springs can actually result in more finger fatigue than firm springs (which will also absorb the impact shock). Hope this provides some insight.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I made my one button using an awful old metal saw, on a dreadful knackered vice ( to hold the alloy core length)! And that was enough for me😟😊!!

[alex_holden]

I seem to recall the Stagi action doesn't have any dampers under the buttons to limit their travel. The buttons are quite short and it's possible to keep pushing until they dip below the surface of the end plate. Is that right? It's been a few years since I worked on one. I found this picture elsewhere on the forum of a Stagi Hayden action:

 

 

I think the buttons are also relatively large diameter compared to most traditional English-built concertinas.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I can tell you from my own concertina to help here.. there are no dampers you are right there, and the construction is very basic in appearance, compared to others.

The buttons, at least on my Hohner branded one, are about same size as English style concertina, quite small, not large.  

As far as I know the buttons move freely, and clumsy fingers may potentially force them below the surface, but I imagine that any other variety, if one is heavy handed, would eventually get forced inside!

As my own was Italian made ( branded to Hohner) I hope this answers the enquiry.

26 years of playing it this year🌝 

( 37 years free reed playing overall since 1988.)😊

Edited February 10 by SIMON GABRIELOW

[alex_holden]

In that case, if by "hollow" @bellowbelle means that the buttons can travel all the way down to the end plate surface (and potentially below it) without coming to a hard stop, perhaps she might consider adding external plates that raise the surface of the button surround, as demonstrated by @fred v :

 

 

1 hour ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

As far as I know the buttons move freely, and clumsy fingers may potentially force them below the surface, but I imagine that any other variety, if one is heavy handed, would eventually get forced inside!

 

That's not possible with most action designs, unless you hit the button so hard you break it.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Hitting buttons too hard.. I have witnessed and known an instance of someone doing just that! ( Not myself  I have to say)! Someone in a music store! ( Years ago)!!

[seanc]

BelloBelle,

You might want to measure the spring tension and also the travel of the buttons. Having defined objective measurements would be helpful to identify what you like or what may be casuing issues. 

 

I suspect that the buttons composition is secondary to the travel and spring tension in how you are being affected.

 

To my recollection.. My Stagi was a very mushy and slow action (I had a Hayden). That may have made it somewhat "easier" to play. Having played a few Morse at BB ( all I tried, i belive the buttons were delrin).. These all tended to be considerably "faster" actions (buttons sounded and closed much qucker making faster playing possible). Which may lend itself to being perceived as "stiffer".

 

You may be able to "lighten" your Morse either through swapping out springs. Or possibly shortening the travel of the buttons.  Or if you send to Bob Snope, he may be able to swap out the Mose buttons entirely for a different type.

 

 

 

 

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

The best solution to not pressing buttons down too far is.. be more gentle as you press, you do not need to use force to play, only enough to make the sound🌝💓

[bellowbelle]

Hi, I didn't mean to abandon this conversation and I will be back! Got busy with some family emergencies and so on.  (My concertina is saving my sanity...I think 😄)