Anglo Vs English. Value for money.

[xgx]

8 hours ago, Richard Mellish said:

(...)

On a Hayden Duet, as long as you're in a major key, you only really need one chord shape, though I'm sure an expert player will use more.

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[Al.]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.   I have now arranged to have a play on an English at a local folk club so will hopefully be able to get an idea of what that system is like and make a more informed choice.

[David Colpitts]

I enjoy threads like this, since many of the responses give priceless insights into the workings of different brains with different systems.  I share the love of the Anglo (and to play in the "home keys" mostly, have added an A/D, G/C or two, my main G/D for sessions, a little Hohner melodion in BbEb (because it was there, and plays more-or-less like an Anglo) "Instant" left-hand chords and intuitive (at least to harmonica players like me) tunes in the home rows.  Three (old Italian) Anglos and the Hohner totaled about 600 US dollars.  That's "value for the money" to me.  Of course, the G/D (Morse, from Massachusetts, USA) cost four times that, but I was already hooked and haven't looked back....also value for the money.  BUT for flexible chords, potential self-accompaniment to voice, and the "subjunctive" keys, I have a beloved Hayden duet, which is remarkable in its own ways.  And if you want to sing along, and have any harmonica experience, beware:  Many of us find it nearly impossible to sing with the Anglo, since for every other note, we try to inhale.  Not so good for singing, although a childhood "parlor trick" perhaps.  

 

I'm glad you are seeking out chances to try different systems.  I used to be able to go an hour north to the Button Box store (and Morse fabrication shop) where I might try 10 or more instruments at a sitting.  That was the "golden age" of tryouts!

 

Good luck!

[Duncan Luddite]

@Al. look up Frank Butler’s “the Concertina” (image below), if you have time, before going to the folk club. It’s a free pdf tutorial for the English Concertina that’s very logical, and he progresses through one or two buttons at a time (and their relevant music notes), to give you a bit of an idea into the EC and what it’s capable of. I’m learning to read music with it. I have a four fold bellows antique EC that we picked up very cheaply (needed a couple months work before being playable XD ) and I can get up to 12 notes before changing bellows direction. 8 notes is very comfortable. Remember, ‘L’ for Left, and ‘L’ for Line (notes). Space notes are on the Right. The methodical note or two lessons mean that you get very familiar with them and the buttons don’t seem as crowded  
 Have fun! and all the best with whatever you choose. 

Edited January 9 by Duncan Luddite
Extra clarification.

[David Barnert]

7 minutes ago, Duncan Luddite said:

look up Frank Butler’s “the Concertina” (image below)

 

Here’s the link.

 

http://www.concertina.com/butler/butler-the-concertina-tutor.pdf

[Duncan Luddite]

Thanks David. 

[Duncan Luddite]

I wasn’t sure how to do the link, especially on a phone (we’re away at the moment)

[seanc]

Maybe a bit late…

 

but.. in a lot of ways. If you take the word concertina out.

 

the cost of a “regular” hammer. May be a lot less than a sledge hammer. Or a specialized masonry hammer. Or on the used market, maybe sledges are a lot less than “regular” hammers.

 

but their applications tend to be very different.

 

anglos tend to be more expensive, because arguably they tend to be used in music that tends to be more popular, Irish, morris, and trad folk.. English tend to be more applicable to classical, or in the role of a violin.

 

a gross over simplification, yes. But, generally true.

 

you can tear down a wall with a regular hammer.. and you might be able to drive a nail with a sledge. But, do you really want to?

 

[Richard Mellish]

The most appropriate system (English/Anglo/Duet) does depend on what sort of music you want to play but it also depends on how those systems fit with the way your brain works and on any relevant past experience.

 

I never played the mouth organ but I had dabbled briefly before I first encountered a diatonic concertina (not strictly an Anglo as it was a cheap and cheerful East German one). So my brain had already met the principle of blow/suck, and that is analogous to push/pull of the bellows.

 

Most of my concertinas since then, and all those that I have played to any great extent, have been Anglos. I have dabbled with McCann and Hayden Duets but I never got very far with them. Because I was less familiar with them than with the Anglos, I played them less, so I remained less familiar.

 

In another universe I might now be playing one of the Duets most of the time and have never acquired any Anglos.

 

I heartily endorse the advice to a beginner to try out every system that they can get their hands on, even if only for minutes. It is very likely that one will immediately seem more intuitive than the others.

[Stephen DOUGLASS]

11 hours ago, seanc said:

anglos tend to be more expensive, because arguably they tend to be used in music that tends to be more popular, Irish, morris, and trad folk.. English tend to be more applicable to classical, or in the role of a violin.

This is an interesting take, I'm not sure whether the Anglo became adopted by folk trad etc because historically it was significantly less expensive than the English, but I use my English for 99% 'traditional/folk' music without thinking I would be better off with an anglo. I wonder if there is indeed a reason why an Anglo would be more suited to that genre? Is it convention or otherwise?

[wunks]

However the preference began, Mammon prefers consolidation of higher priced cheaply and easily produced goods for co-opting.

[Richard Mellish]

6 hours ago, Stephen DOUGLASS said:

This is an interesting take, I'm not sure whether the Anglo became adopted by folk trad etc because historically it was significantly less expensive than the English, but I use my English for 99% 'traditional/folk' music without thinking I would be better off with an anglo. I wonder if there is indeed a reason why an Anglo would be more suited to that genre? Is it convention or otherwise?

An Anglo needs fewer reeds, levers, etc than an English to provide a roughly similar range of notes. Therefore, when concertinas were being made in large numbers, Anglos cost less to make and could sell at a cheaper price for the same quality. That was surely the main driver of their adoption by traditional musicians in England and elsewhere, especially Ireland. Subsequently it seems the Irish preference for Anglos is largely a matter of tradition: most established players play them so most new players take up the same kind, even though you can play the same music on an English and nowadays that could be cheaper because of supply and demand. Meanwhile those who want to play classical music tend to go for English, but Cohen has shown that it can be played on an Anglo.

[seanc]

15 minutes ago, Richard Mellish said:

An Anglo needs fewer reeds, levers, etc than an English to provide a roughly similar range of notes. Therefore, when concertinas were being made in large numbers, Anglos cost less to make and could sell at a cheaper price for the same quality. That was surely the main driver of their adoption by traditional musicians in England and elsewhere, especially Ireland. Subsequently it seems the Irish preference for Anglos is largely a matter of tradition: most established players play them so most new players take up the same kind, even though you can play the same music on an English and nowadays that could be cheaper because of supply and demand. Meanwhile those who want to play classical music tend to go for English, but Cohen has shown that it can be played on an Anglo.

Chicken or egg….

 

but, imo.. the the cost is probably the initial rationale for adoption. And in many cases ITM/ folk etc were not largely played by “serious” musicians. And then the idiom,  and cliches used became “standardized” on that platform. And the new players followed their heroes, who also became their teachers and it became institutionalized.

 

just a guess…

 

[Clive Thorne]

15 hours ago, Richard Mellish said:

An Anglo needs fewer reeds, levers, etc than an English to provide a roughly similar range of notes. Therefore, when concertinas were being made in large numbers, Anglos cost less to make and could sell at a cheaper price for the same quality. That was surely * the main driver of their adoption by traditional musicians in England and elsewhere, especially Ireland. Subsequently it seems the Irish preference for Anglos is largely a matter of tradition: most established players play them so most new players take up the same kind, even though you can play the same music on an English and nowadays that could be cheaper because of supply and demand. Meanwhile those who want to play classical music tend to go for English, but Cohen has shown that it can be played on an Anglo**.

* I would say possibly rather rather than surely.

 

** Though I believe that he typically plays a 40+ key instrument.

 

[hjcjones]

Whilst the availability of cheap (usually German) concertinas had a great deal to do with the anglo's popularity, it is not as simple as saying that the anglo was used for folk and the EC for classical. There are plenty of old photos of English traditional musicians playing ECs, for example this rapper side from 1921.  

 

This has continued into the modern revival, and I know at least as many players of EC as Anglo on the English folk scene.

 

It is only in the last few decades that the concertina really took off in Irish music. After its heyday in Ireland in the 19th and early 20th Centuries it fell into decline. When I was playing mainly Irish music in the 1970s and 80s I didn't really associate concertina with Irish music and hardly ever heard it used for that. As far as I can recall I came across only one player in the Irish style, at a session at Whitby Festival in the 1980s (that I can remember it shows how unusual that was). It was only when I joined concertina.net that I became aware of how popular it had become among players of Irish music.  That has coincided with widespread global interest in ITM (and not just among the Irish diaspora) and has probably driven up the demand for anglos, which in turn has pushed up the price compared with other systems.

 

It makes sense to choose anglo if you want to play ITM, as there is now an established style with a wealth of teaching material. It likewise makes sense to choose EC to play classical, because it mimics the violin and the buttons map easily to written notation. But they should only be considered as guidelines. Play what instrument suits you best, and play whatever you like on it.