Anglo Vs English. Value for money.

[Tiposx]

I am only 50 miles away should to want to try some out. Just a thought.

[Al.]

Thanks for that,  I may give you a call nearer the time.

[John Wild]

33 minutes ago, Al. said:

I'm in Northallerton, North Yorkshire. Have only just moved there and just starting to "dip my toe" in the local folk scene.   I am off to a session in Richmond this week so may find someone there to assist my quest.

Check out Dave Elliott, nrear Sheffield, or Theo Gibb in Newcastle.

See their details at https://www.concertina.info/tina.faq/conc-mak.htm

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Anglo system is what I have always used, and started on right from 20 button ( Kligenthal made) to my present 30 button Anglo, ( Hohner branded made in Italy) steel reeds, leather bellows. I play mostly classical and lesser known works and I am more than happy with it.

There is more thought on using bellows for air and for making the notes also, and it can make for some practice, however, it is worth doing ( in my opinion).

It's a combination of a left and right keyboard which requires both your hands to co-ordinate .. all comes down to practice, and personal  preference as well for the individual.

 

[DickT]

Try every system first if you can. One or the other may be better value for money as an instrument but if you cannot play that system vfm is of no consequence. My first concertina, when I knew nothing, was an anglo (Bb/F Jeffries) but I could not get on with it. Superb although it was it was not for me. I tried an english (a very cheap tutor model) and was playing tunes within minutes; the fingering just suited me. I would strongly advise deferring a purchase until you have done a survey of all the systems, or as many as you can, especially comparing the anglo and english. Good luck with finding concertinas to try; I would recommend a visit to Theo or David if possible.

PS If Irish trad is your music it can be done very well on an english, contrary to popular opinion which holds that you must use an anglo.

[Clive Thorne]

As others have said/implied above: The choice of system you go for should (ideally) not be determined by the "Value for money", but by what you want to play and which sytem feels right/natural  to you.

 

I am an anglo player, but in your position I would aim to have a go at and anglo, and english and at least one of the duet systems before choosing what to go for.

 

As with the English system, lower level vintage duets also tend to be "value for money", relative to anglos, simply because of supply & demand thing.

 

[fred v]

The EC is much more flexible for various music styles and able to play in any key or mode. I play the EC with 5 fold bellows but I really work the bellows for accent playing ITM. The bellows were never meant to be extended out like in clown cartoons. Work them like a fiddle bow.

[hjcjones]

3 hours ago, fred v said:

The EC is much more flexible for various music styles and able to play in any key or mode. 

Up to a point. The 30-button C/G anglo covers almost exactly the same range as a 48-button treble EC, and is for all practical purposes fully chromatic over the shared range - there are two or three gaps at the extremes but I doubt many EC players use those notes either.  In the middle range where tunes are mostly played it is fully chromatic.

 

It is probably true that it is easier to play in different keys on EC. The EC keyboard has a very logical linear layout, as one might expect from one designed by a physicist. The logic of the anglo is more apparent in one's hands than on paper, but it is easy and even intuitive to play in the home keys. However playing in other keys can be more challenging, requiring not only more complex fingering patterns but also unintuitive bellows changes, and becomes more so the further away around the circle of fifths one gets from the home keys.

 

The reason most anglo players (myself included) struggle to play in other keys is that we have little need to. Most of us play folk music which is usually in G, D, C or A, and we focus on playing in those keys. However for those players who are so minded it is quite possible to play in other keys.  In particular, South African Boeremusiek is played in a great number of keys, including Ab, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F and G, although they usually use 40-button instruments.

 

Other anglo players (like myself) get around the problem by shamelessly transposing tunes into more friendly keys, and by acquiring more instruments in different keys. You can never have too many concertinas, a view which is obviously shared by a number of EC players I know, with far less excuse!

 

The point I am making is that the anglo is just as capable of playing in any key or mode as EC, and any apparent failing is on the part of its players rather than the instrument itself. However I am forced to admit that if you expect to play in a lot of keys, or to play very chromatic music, you will probably have an easier time on an EC or perhaps a duet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Diss]

Having only played myself for a few months, this all made for an interesting read for me.
I think i changed my mind about wether i should have gone EC instead of anglo several times.
I started playing Anglo when a friend lent me one and i fell instantly in love with it

I have since come across many a song that i think "that would work really well on the concertina" but cant seem to make the chords sequence work for me.
Should i have gone EC? maybe, should i have gone duet? possibly.
Then someone mentioned people struggling with the alternating sides and i instantly shuddered (lets call that a sign) - I think i'm safe on my Anglo for now  and as i say, its the instrument i fell for.

Its encouraging to read hjcjones say that a 30b anglo should be as capable as the EC - i shall continue practice and learn then maybe one day i can come back to these songs i think should work.

Anyway that ramble was of no use to Al. other than maybe, speaking as someone who did not explore the options fully, i do wander, what if?

 

Edited January 6 by Diss
poor, poor grammar

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Don't worry about having to have chords set up for you printed on page.. at this stage get to know the instrument more. Single note melody is often overlooked and all the chords can slow down learning process. Study the chord possibilities gradually or by ear too. And you will eventually hear which works and which does not.

Some times simply adding a single extra note here and there can also be effective. 

 

[Richard Mellish]

13 hours ago, hjcjones said:

Other anglo players (like myself) get around the problem by shamelessly transposing tunes into more friendly keys, and by acquiring more instruments in different keys. You can never have too many concertinas, a view which is obviously shared by a number of EC players I know, with far less excuse!

That certainly describes me. I can play a tune one key away from the basic ones (i.e. C or A on a G-D box) but I need to work it out slowly, whereas the basic keys are very much easier. I now have instruments in Bb-F, C-G, G-D, D-A and Gminor-Dminor.

 

Apropos chords; as long as you're in one of the basic keys, a lot of the buttons on the corresponding row on the left-hand end will play notes that harmonise with whichever melody note you're playing on the right-hand end. (The extreme case of that situation is on a one-row melodion, with only two chords, both of which work OK with every melody note.) You do need to learn a few chord "shapes" as a guitarist does but, if you're on the middle row on the right-hand end, a lot of the time the chord will be two or three buttons on the middle row on the left-hand end and either nothing else or one button on the top row; and correspondingly, if you're on the bottom row on the right-hand end, a lot of the time the chord will be two or three buttons on the bottom row on the left-hand end and either nothing else or one button on the middle row.

 

On a Hayden Duet, as long as you're in a major key, you only really need one chord shape, though I'm sure an expert player will use more.

 

It's also worth pointing out that a single harmonising note on the left hand end is sometimes better than a multi-note chord.

 

Edit: I should apologise for drifting away from the OP's value for money concern. My collection of concertinas demonstrates that cost has not been a serious limitation in my case.

Edited January 7 by Richard Mellish
Adding last paragraph.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Yes, getting back to the original question.. "value for money"..

I think it will depend upon what you need personally, whichever system you are looking at.. for myself I have my one and only Anglo 30 Key in CG layout (Italian made) Hohner branded instrument. It is from 1990s period. Not antique, but it's fine enough for me ( 26 years of use to date and still going strong)!

The range of notes about 3and half chromatic octaves ( not including lots of extra ones). 

But that is my own choice .. it will not suit others, however there will be a few more who have similar variety. Having only used Anglo myself I cannot say which is best for anyone else 🌝.

 

 

 

 

[hjcjones]

In reply to Diss, please don't underestimate the difficulty in playing in "strange" keys, especially with chords. Whilst all the individual notes are there, the ones you need to build a chord may not all be available in the same direction.  However there are ways to compromise and work around this.

 

On a C/G it is easy to play in the home keys of C and G with full chordal accompaniment, while F and D are slightly more difficult but very playable. Em, Am and Dm are also straightforward. To play in other keys is venturing into advanced playing, and is an area where many very competent players don't go, because they have no need to play in those keys. But they are possible.

 

Don't be afraid to alter the key of a tune to transpose it into one which sits better on your instrument. This is only a problem when playing with others who prefer a different key. For actual songs with words this may be essential, to put it into a key which suits the singer's voice. 

 

I repeat my advice that if you think you will regularly want to play in a wide range of keys then possibly the EC might be a better choice. If you get the opportunity I would encourage you to try one. However, since it was the anglo which calls you then I would say stick with it. I find I can play most of the music I want on it (mainly English folk, including some early Playford).  I get around the keys issue by transposing, and I have instruments in G/D, F/C and Bb/F as well as C/G. I admit this is the lazy, as well as expensive, solution and I'm sure if I really put my mind to it I could play in more keys on the C/G. But, much as I love playing concertina, I play other instruments too and have other interests outside music.

 

I guess the point of all this rambling is that whatever system you choose it should be possible find a way to play most things on it, although some may come more easily than others. The system all have strengths and weaknesses, as does any instrument. Whist you may take pointers from the type of music or from inspiring players, ultimately what matters most is to find a system you are comfortable with, and that can only come from trying it. Value for money is of course important, perhaps especially at the budget end, but it is more important that it is spent wisely.

[David Barnert]

8 minutes ago, hjcjones said:

I repeat my advice that if you think you will regularly want to play in a wide range of keys then possibly the EC might be a better choice.

 

Or Duet...

 

But my usual advice is: Find out what the person was playing that first inspired you to want to play the concertina and get one of those.

[RogerT]

My advice is: don't overthink it. An Anglo is relatively easy to get a tune out of. A CG 30k Anglo has lots of reversals and is easy to play in common keys, esp DG, A, F, C etc, and has some great runs for ITD music. A 20k Anglo is a great way to try out this system.

I personally find the EC  harder to play. . Is not as percussive as an Anglo, and, no one has mentioned this, has annoyingly crowded buttons (except on one or two models I've seen), so if you have biggish hands and or fingers, it's just horrible to play. Also it's not the most logical way to play, given the left right left right scale progression, but I guess you can get used to that. I'd ignore all the stuff about playing in many different keys, unless you read music and plan to spend hours (as I do) browsing music books and sight reading tunes to try them out.

[John Wild]

5 hours ago, Richard Mellish said:

On a Hayden Duet, as long as you're in a major key, you only really need one chord shape, though I'm sure an expert player will use more.

Two principal chord shapes - one for a major chord and one for a minor chord.

More advanced players might add an extra pattern for a seventh chord.

[hjcjones]

3 hours ago, David Barnert said:

But my usual advice is: Find out what the person was playing that first inspired you to want to play the concertina and get one of those.

 

Agreed. Although it didn't work that way for me. I first heard concertina played by Tony Rose on an LP. I played guitar and was getting into folk music, and this got me thinking that the concertina was a proper folkie instument. I knew absolutely nothing about concertinas, but my local music shop had one in the window, so I bought it. It turned out to be an anglo - Tony Rose played EC. But that turned out to be the right choice for me, and I've never been tempted by EC.  

 

Nevertheless, if you were first attracted to the instrument by a particular player then that's a good place to start.

[Diss]

The term "percussive" is a great way to describe the anglo, maybe thats also why i've been drawn straight in.
I played drums for many years 

I wander if i had picked up an EC first, would i have been so infatuated? 

I love it - from what people are saying here, i think i made the right choice - it does seem to be coming quite naturally to me. 
I guess i tried to jump ahead and scared myself when i couldn't quite work out the chords i wanted to at first

but im happy to let the instrument lead way.
Im listening to so much british/irish folk, ive no doubt i'll find plenty more songs that excite me to get stuck into.