Anglo Vs English. Value for money.

[Al.]

So I'm looking at buying a Concertina later this year, the budget is limited probably no more than £600 and the chances of my being able to afford an upgrade later are unlikely.  I was originally looking at Anglo concertinas but getting something with good(ish) bellows means an old Lachenal without the C# unless I am lucky enough to find a D/G or a 22 button in my price range.   Having looked at English concertinas I realise I can get a thirty button chromatic  Jackie in my price range or even a four fold bellows brass reeded Lachenal.  Would I be right in assuming that the bellows action on an English is less important since there are less direction changes.  Anyones comments on my thoughts or on Anglo Vs English value for money would be welcome.

[Tiposx]

Hello again  AI. I notice that you posted this in September:

“So I'm yet another person looking to take up Anglo Concertina without the funds for a good English 30 Button.    My budget is liable to be £5-600 and I do not expect to be able to upgrade later.  Putting aside the "limitations" of a 20 button concertina is a Lachenal in this price range going to be easier to play than a Rochelle?   I have also read that it is possible to change a reed out in a Lachenal to give the missing C#, anyopinions on the viability and cost of this would be appreciated.”

 

This might sound very impertinent indeed, but given your user name and lack of detail in your profile,I would want to know if you were a human before contributing to this thread.

 

Regards

Tiposx

[Al.]

Totally human. 

[Al.]

Only just noticed I said "English" 30 button instead of Anglo, so no wonder you asked.  Also Al does look rather like A.I.

[David Barnert]

19 minutes ago, Al. said:

Only just noticed I said "English" 30 button instead of Anglo, so no wonder you asked.  Also Al does look rather like A.I.

 

I copied the username and pasted it into a field where I could change the font to see that the 2nd letter is ell, not eye.

 

Al.

 

[Tiposx]

That explains it nicely. My Rick Deckard instinct is satisfied, thank you Al.

 

[Tiposx]

To generalise:

English system concertinas tend to be less expensive than 30b anglos. 20 button anglos tend be really inexpensive. That is a pity in some ways.

To paraphrase something I heard once: on an ec 5 folds are good, 6 are better. On an anglo 6 folds are good. 7 are better.

But

Beginners will use much more air, as will lesser quality reeds, air leaks etc.

I have ec with 4 folds and 5, it isn't problem, as they are great boxes and I can play reasonably well, sometimes. Just tap the buttons and reverse the bellows each bar or so, or where it adds drive to the music (mainly itm in my case) I don't play chords.

I am a learner with the anglo, and I can just about manage with 6 folds. When I get around to playing chords I might appreciate another fold.

[Al.]

So would an EC with four fold bellows be better than an Anglo with five fold as far as running out of air is concerned, also does the quality (in particular) the stiffness of the bellows matter so much.   It seems to me that if I were to go for an EC I could do so much more than I could with an Anglo of the same price and hopefully wouldn't feel the need to upgrade..

[Tiposx]

Hmm . A decent quality EC playing single note melody is no problem with 4 folds and practice. Some would argue that it is better with less folds, as it forces the drive of the phrasing in the music. Itm and hornpipes in particular need that bounce. You can play only one or two notes between reversals as an exercise, no problem.

Personally I would struggle with an Anglo with 5 folds, as I can’t always get the reversals needed. I am not very good on Anglo though.

I tend to agree with your last sentence AL. It is why I went with EC in the first place. The Anglo is great fun though, and makes a change. I am aiming to throw in a few harmony chords before long, that sounds super on the Anglo to me.

Other members will have different and valid opinions of course.

[Al.]

Thanks, I'll wait to see if anyone else has an opinion.  I have seen a shop which still has some new Jackie's in stock which may be an option.

[Alan Day]

Firstly what type of music do you want to play?

Do you want to accompany yourself or another singing ?

Do you want the concertina for Folk Music EG Irish, English Country dance / Morris. Do you want to play chords

Classical Music ?

Lots of things to consider before deciding on what to buy.

Al

[Mike Franch]

Alan Day raises fundamental questions. There's also the matter of which type of instrument you'll get on with. Some people try one and find it just does not work for them. If possible, you might rent two in succession, an Anglo and an English. Some people find that their brains don't work with the Anglo.  I play EC, and have a friend who finds the notes alternating sides to be incomprehensible. Some people can play both systems comfortably.

 

Once you settle on a system, you could contact sellers and restorers (and some are both of these) and find out what's the best they can do for you with the money you have.

 

Finally, welcome to the club! And I don't think anyone will look down on you because of your instrument. (As a matter of fact, I know someone who plays better on his Jackie than I play on my Wheatstone!)

Edited January 5 by Mike Franch
I originally wrote "they're" rather than "their."

[wunks]

Wait...wait..study...wait...Pounce!  When I bought my Jeffries duet from Geoffrey Crab in Islington in the 70's He opined that it didn't matter what system you start with.  I tend to agree.

[hjcjones]

The EC, even a 30-button Jackie, is more chromatic than a 20 button anglo so is potentially more versatile, but it is not as simple as that. There are reasons why the anglo became so popular, and it wasn't just that these were originally cheaper. Whilst it is true to some extent that it doesn't matter which system you start with, some styles of music are better suited to certain systems. If you were inspired by a particular sound or style then choosing a different system may prove to be unsatisfactory. 

 

Nowadays, as you have found, ECs tend to be slightly cheaper than anglos.  However this only represents value for money if the instrument will do what you want.

 

I wouldn't base my choice principally on the bellows. Of course, more folds is usually better, especially with anglos (although too many folds can become unwieldy). However there is more to air management than the size of bellows. With the anglo, this is achieved by the use of reversals (where the same note can be played in the opposite direction on a different button) but mainly by active use of the air button. My first proper concertina was a 26-button with brass reeds and rather leaky five-fold bellows, but it taught me how to use the air button effectively while playing (not just grabbing air between phrases), which has stood me well when I moved on to better instruments.

 

Why were you originally looking at anglos? Was this inspired by a particular type of music, or by a particular player/s? My advice would be to decide what system you want to play, and then get the best you can afford. If the C# is important to you, go to a reputable dealer who has a good stock of instruments. You may find they have 21 or 26 button anglos which are not shown on their website.

 

Of course, there is a risk when you take up any instrument that it may not suit you.  Whichever system you choose, you may find that you don't get on with it - as Mike Franch pointed out, some people's brains can't cope with the push-pull of an anglo, and others (including mine) can't handle alternating between sides on an EC. If you have an opportunity to hire or borrow an instrument that may help you decide. If not, then take a chance anyway. You can always sell it and try a different system if you really don't get on with it.

 

Finally, don't be so sure you will never upgrade. These things can become addictive.

 

[Al.]

Thanks, the original choice was for an Anglo concertina but that was because I didn't know much about the English system.   As for the type of music I would want to use it for quite a few styles.   Getting the hang of the English keyboard is my only concern.   I have tried an Anglo briefly and managed to knock out a faltering tune on it, I have yet to try and English and having just moved to the other end of England haven't yet made the contacts to ask to try anybody's 

 

[wunks]

I know your post says Anglo vs. EC but some duets can be had at least as reasonably as an EC.  

[hjcjones]

Which end of England is that? There may be players nearby who'd be willing to help.

 

[Al.]

I'm in Northallerton, North Yorkshire. Have only just moved there and just starting to "dip my toe" in the local folk scene.   I am off to a session in Richmond this week so may find someone there to assist my quest.