New Concertina Starter Model Specifications

[Bassconcertina.net]

3 hours ago, Cornfield said:

Affordability would be more important for a low cost instrument than the action choice.

Single action it is. 

 

1 hour ago, David Colpitts said:

This thread is great fun to follow, and I am learning much. I hope you'll find the creation of a Hayden duet concertina a worthwhile use of your energies!  As someone (Alex?) said, there's a very expensive and long upgrade path for Haydens with "real concertina" reeds, but that may not matter so much to those of us who already like the accordion-reeded hybrids.  For me, the upgrades to accordion-reeded Haydens is still pricey, and if you could get more buttons into an economical package I bet you'd have a hit.

Thank you for your enthusiasm, how many buttons would you think would be good enough. If you can make a layout including the Octave numbers that'd be fantastic. I don't know anything about duet layouts really, I am willing to learn.

 

Kane

[JimR]

I'll bite. First, a starter box "should" be inexpensive enough for a starter to buy, and be of better quality than the average rubber tube connected Stagi-ish 'tina. 20 button Anglos to start, and to get your process right, then take orders.

[Bassconcertina.net]

18 minutes ago, JimR said:

I'll bite. First, a starter box "should" be inexpensive enough for a starter to buy, and be of better quality than the average rubber tube connected Stagi-ish 'tina. 20 button Anglos to start, and to get your process right, then take orders.

I already have that designed to, so, It wouldn't hurt to start with that.

 

However, I am currently building a foot bass for my first customer, so I gotta finish that first. Then I can build the 20 button.

Edited November 27 by Bassconcertina.net

[Clive Thorne]

The problem with buildinga 20 button anglo is that there are a lot of vintage Lachenal 20 keys out there at a similar price to your target price. You'd have to match those in terms of tone and playability. Yes they were cheap instruments when made, but many would prefer them, with the real concertina reeds etc., to a new hybrid 20 key.

 

Personally I would go for a 30 key anglo because even the Lachenal ones available start way above your target price range, so your competitors would be the chinese built stuff, so you'd have to beat or match their price/quality ratio.

 

Also, even as starter instruments I would have thought the market for 30 keys was bigger than the market for 20 keys.

If you can find a niche, however, then brilliant.

 

 

 

 

[Roger Hare]

On 11/27/2024 at 7:49 AM, Tiposx said:

I owned a Flying Duck Anglo in c/g with 22 buttons. It was very good for the easier Irish music that I play. That layout was a great introduction to the full 30 buttons...

I am very fortunate to own a 21-button G/D Duckling which must have been one of the last instruments completed by Paul before his very untimely death.

 

It cost £135 plus carriage, or something like that.

 

The action is (ply)wood, the reeds are recycled PA reeds, the bellows are heavy duty paper (used as a substitute for  gold beaters skin, I think?). It's a stunner for the price! I use it for Morris practice with occasional visits to a dance-out.

 

The web site is still there and there are plenty of pictures of the different models (Duckling, Dabbler, Duck) to give an idea of the construction. It would be good if someone were to pick the ideas up and run with them...

Edited November 28 by Roger Hare

[Richard Mellish]

On 11/27/2024 at 1:38 PM, Steve Schulteis said:

For an Anglo, C/G is unquestionably the correct key for a starter instrument. As a harmonic player, 30 buttons would be ideal, but if you have to cut it down, 24 buttons with the Wheatstone layout would be a good compromise. That gets you the most important accidentals on LH 5a and RH 1a, and the most important reversals on LH 4a and RH 2a.

C/G are the obvious keys for customers who mainly wish to Irish music, but many makes and models exist at all prices, so your choices of notes, quality and price will be critical if you are to beat the competition. For English music sessions G/D is much better, and G/D instruments of any quality are much thinner on the ground.

[Bassconcertina.net]

2 hours ago, Richard Mellish said:

C/G are the obvious keys for customers who mainly wish to Irish music, but many makes and models exist at all prices, so your choices of notes, quality and price will be critical if you are to beat the competition. For English music sessions G/D is much better, and G/D instruments of any quality are much thinner on the ground.

I plan to offer Anglo models in every key, I will just have the customer specify what keys they want, it won't be much of an issue as the design will be easy to adjust around the small difference in reed sizes. at least between the keys: Low E/B (that is E/B below G/D) and High G/D (that is G/D an octave higher than standard.) I can do it currently, so its only getting easier, so why not do it. 

 

Keep in mind I only have hand tools and an inverted jigsaw at the moment, But I plan to get better tools when I can afford it.

[Dimble]

I love the idea of an inexpensive Hayden with a blank on the left hand side. For the right hand, I would suggest notes from the F below middle C to the A above the treble clef staff. This gives 2 octave plus 2 notes. If at all possible, I would include all Bb's, Eb's, and Ab's plus all F#'s, C#'s, and G#'s in that range. This would be good for playing with strings (which prefer sharps) and with horns (which prefer flats). An extra two buttons for D#'s as the enharmonics for the Ebs would be very nice if feasible. If not, I would leave off the D# buttons, but that will come down to preference.

[David Colpitts]

I am not sure what you mean by "a blank on the left hand side." Do you mean no notes, or that you don't know which notes you want?

[Little John]

11 hours ago, Dimble said:

I love the idea of an inexpensive Hayden with a blank on the left hand side. For the right hand, I would suggest notes from the F below middle C to the A above the treble clef staff.

 

This would be a very niche instrument, not a starter instrument for "the masses".

[Dimble]

13 hours ago, David Colpitts said:

I am not sure what you mean by "a blank on the left hand side." Do you mean no notes, or that you don't know which notes you want?

I mean no buttons, just a flat, blank piece of material with a hand strap. It would exist only for bellows movement.

[Don Taylor]

2 minutes ago, Dimble said:

I mean no buttons, just a flat, blank piece of material with a hand strap. It would exist only for bellows movement.

Have you considered a Striso board?

[Dimble]

5 hours ago, Little John said:

 

This would be a very niche instrument, not a starter instrument for "the masses".

Here is my logic: the first thing that most folks would want to do on any concertina is play one note at a time. Either scales or melody lines make sense to me as early exercises. One common way to play a duet is with the melody on the right hand side, accompaniment on the left. Starting with only the right hand side but a good number of accidentals keeps new players from needing to do the mental work of finding the enharmonic notes or switching between hands. To be clear, this concept is more to help folks try a Hayden button layout than to be a duet. I personally would continue to use it even with more "advanced" instruments in my collection if it were light.

Edited Wednesday at 04:07 PM by Dimble
Clarity

[Dimble]

4 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

Have you considered a Striso board?

Good suggestion. I own one, and love it for expressive, slower music and for playing with headphones. It was actually my introduction to the Hayden/Wiki layout. I found it tricky as a beginner because it is easy to accidentally pitch bend or tone bend on accident. It did, however, help me confirm that I love the layout.

[alex_holden]

14 hours ago, Dimble said:

Here is my logic: the first thing that most folks would want to do on any concertina is play one note at a time. Either scales or melody lines make sense to me as early exercises. One common way to play a duet is with the melody on the right hand side, accompaniment on the left. Starting with only the right hand side but a good number of accidentals keeps new players from needing to do the mental work of finding the enharmonic notes or switching between hands. To be clear, this concept is more to help folks try a Hayden button layout than to be a duet. I personally would continue to use it even with more "advanced" instruments in my collection if it were light.

 

I'm currently building a custom Hayden 'solo' bass concertina for someone. His logic was that he doesn't actually want to play two concertinas at once, but he likes the Hayden layout. You could think of it as being something like a bass English in capability but with all the buttons on one side. It actually goes a bit further than that: he has a plan to bolt the buttonless side to the end of a heavy table so he can play the concertina with one hand, while playing a completely different instrument with the other hand.

 

I would agree with John though that this is a fairly niche instrument, not a budget starter model.

[Dimble]

7 hours ago, alex_holden said:

I would agree with John though that this is a fairly niche instrument, not a budget starter model.

What button layout would you suggest to make it budget but not niche?

[Dimble]

On 11/27/2024 at 5:36 AM, Little John said:

In my experience the majority of traditional tunes fit within the range D4 to B5. That's 13 natural notes. Add to that two F#s, a C#, two G#s and a high D# and you have a minimal set of 19 notes. That would be applicable to an English concertina and to the RHS of a duet.

 

I do come across a few tunes which go down to B3 and/or up to C6. Also the above minimum doesn't allow for any flat keys for singing. To give more of the "full English" chromatic flavour I would extend the range to cover B3 to C6 and all the accidentals with the exception of Ab; because it's so rarely used in my experience. (So for clarity that includes G# (different button from Ab) and both D# and Eb.) That's 28 buttons.

 

I suggest any English design you come up with should lie somewhere in this 19 - 28 button range.

I would like to both confirm what Little John says here and expand on it by adding some data.

 

In Foinn Seisiún 1 by Comhaltas, the range of melody notes is A3 to B5, with A3 appearing only twice by my count. It would be hard to play these tunes without 2 sharps and a 3rd wouldn't go amis.

 

In the Real Dixieland Book, arranged by Robert Rawlins, the melody range is Bb3 to Bb5. It would be hard to play these tunes without 3 flats and a 4th wouldn't go amiss.

 

I would say that a fully chromatic instrument is nearly essential for trad jazz and very nice in any concertina.

[David Barnert]

On 12/4/2024 at 9:28 AM, Dimble said:

To be clear, this concept is more to help folks try a Hayden button layout than to be a duet.

 

That seems a pretty limited use. What would the person do with it after becoming familiar with the layout?