New Concertina Starter Model Specifications

[Bassconcertina.net]

Hello,

 

I am starting to make free reed instruments, and I noticed that there is a lack of great starter concertinas, especially ever since the closing of Flying Duck Concertinas. I am planning to design three starter concertina models:

 

- English layout,

- Anglo,

- and if there is any demand, one Duet as well. 

 

I would like to know the most desired specifications of these boxes, this includes but is not limited to:

 

- Range

- amount of buttons

- What keys (anglos)

 

I will discuss price when I get more ideas for what these instruments may be like, I would like the price for any model to NOT exceed 600 USD. 

 

Thanks

 

Kane

[PaulDa321]

I think making Anglo C/Gs would hit the supply problem best (there are plenty of bad c/g anglos in that price range, but a shortage of good ones).  If you could save money by making a 26 button concertina and putting that money into other components, I don’t think the missing buttons would be missed. I don’t think a 20 button makes sense.  I’ve long thought that the action on a Stagi W 15 LN seemed a pretty genius design and could be worth looking at, but the buttons bottom out on the face of the end piece, which is odd. I think there’s some potential inspiration to be drawn from that model, which I think is a good starter. 

[Tiposx]

I owned a Flying Duck Anglo in c/g with 22 buttons. It was very good for the easier Irish music that I play. That layout was a great introduction to the full 30 buttons.

I find that playing on 20 buttons trains my fingers/brain to play a certain way which makes it hard to swap over to 30 buttons.

Best luck with your idea.

[Tiposx]

For an English system you could use the Stagi a18 as a model for the range of buttons. Mine could do with another couple of buttons to play the vast majority of the tunes I play. 
The Morse Geordie has 37 buttons, which covers everything I play and much more.

One of the best things about the Flying Duck was that it had a recognisable lever and button design, with bushings in the buttons, but made out of cnc cut plywood.

it was a very clever design. I further improved mine by bushing the buttons at the exit (traditional bushings) and replacing the vegan bellows with trad ones.

I am wandering now! but good luck with the project.

[Little John]

In my experience the majority of traditional tunes fit within the range D4 to B5. That's 13 natural notes. Add to that two F#s, a C#, two G#s and a high D# and you have a minimal set of 19 notes. That would be applicable to an English concertina and to the RHS of a duet.

 

I do come across a few tunes which go down to B3 and/or up to C6. Also the above minimum doesn't allow for any flat keys for singing. To give more of the "full English" chromatic flavour I would extend the range to cover B3 to C6 and all the accidentals with the exception of Ab; because it's so rarely used in my experience. (So for clarity that includes G# (different button from Ab) and both D# and Eb.) That's 28 buttons.

 

I suggest any English design you come up with should lie somewhere in this 19 - 28 button range.

[alex_holden]

The sales inquiries I get suggest there is quite a bit of unmet demand for duets, whereas I very rarely get people asking about Englishes, probably because vintage ones are still plentiful. I do also get plenty of inquiries about Anglos, but you would be far from the only maker selling into that market: you would be trying to compete with the Chinese-made budget Anglos like the Rochelle and the Wren on value for money.

 

If you do make a duet, you'll have to decide which keyboard system to make. Hayden is fairly popular these days and there are a couple of options on the market at the low end, but the problem is that it gets very difficult/expensive as a player if you learn the system and later want to upgrade to a larger one with traditional reeds. If you made a Crane or Maccann instead, nobody else is currently making those at the low end, and your customers would have an upgrade path to a higher-end vintage instrument.

[Steve Schulteis]

For an Anglo, C/G is unquestionably the correct key for a starter instrument. As a harmonic player, 30 buttons would be ideal, but if you have to cut it down, 24 buttons with the Wheatstone layout would be a good compromise. That gets you the most important accidentals on LH 5a and RH 1a, and the most important reversals on LH 4a and RH 2a.

[Little John]

30 minutes ago, alex_holden said:

The sales inquiries I get suggest there is quite a bit of unmet demand for duets, ...

 

10 hours ago, Bassconcertina.net said:

especially ever since the closing of Flying Duck Concertinas. I am planning to design three starter concertina models:

... 

 

- and if there is any demand, one Duet as well. 

 

The smallest Crane duet has 35 buttons, but it of limited use because of the note choice. I drew up for Flying Duck an improved 35 button layout which follows the principles of my earlier post and therefore eliminates most of the limitations. Free to anyone interested ...

[Cornfield]

How about an English that sounds in the bass range?

[Bassconcertina.net]

Thank you to everyone who has responded.

 

3 hours ago, Little John said:

I do come across a few tunes which go down to B3 and/or up to C6. Also the above minimum doesn't allow for any flat keys for singing. To give more of the "full English" chromatic flavour I would extend the range to cover B3 to C6 and all the accidentals with the exception of Ab; because it's so rarely used in my experience. (So for clarity that includes G# (different button from Ab) and both D# and Eb.) That's 28 buttons.

 

I suggest any English design you come up with should lie somewhere in this 19 - 28 button range.

Interesting Idea, It sounds like it would be easier to make than a fully chromatic instrument, I will draw up a layout later and post it to see if I understand correctly. If I do this I will make at least one more instrument design that is fully chromatic. 

 

51 minutes ago, alex_holden said:

If you do make a duet, you'll have to decide which keyboard system to make. Hayden is fairly popular these days and there are a couple of options on the market at the low end, but the problem is that it gets very difficult/expensive as a player if you learn the system and later want to upgrade to a larger one with traditional reeds. If you made a Crane or Maccann instead, nobody else is currently making those at the low end, and your customers would have an upgrade path to a higher-end vintage instrument.

Thank you for the input. I can see myself making a crane, as I could make a 35 button one. If someone came up with layouts for Maccann's and/or Hayden's that had less than 40 buttons I would design an instrument around them. I don't know anything about these systems. I play English mainly, and Anglo, very little.

 

18 minutes ago, Little John said:

The smallest Crane duet has 35 buttons, but it of limited use because of the note choice. I drew up for Flying Duck an improved 35 button layout which follows the principles of my earlier post and therefore eliminates most of the limitations. Free to anyone interested ...

I would be extremely interested. 

 

52 minutes ago, Steve Schulteis said:

For an Anglo, C/G is unquestionably the correct key for a starter instrument. As a harmonic player, 30 buttons would be ideal, but if you have to cut it down, 24 buttons with the Wheatstone layout would be a good compromise. That gets you the most important accidentals on LH 5a and RH 1a, and the most important reversals on LH 4a and RH 2a.

Ok, I will need to find the 24 button layout, I don't have a lot of knowledge of anglo layouts past 20 buttons.

 

Kane

[Bassconcertina.net]

6 minutes ago, Cornfield said:

How about an English that sounds in the bass range?

I would be happy too, what would you in particular be looking for, Single action or double action, C-bass or G-bass, ect...

 

I've noticed a lack of affordable Bass Concertinas first hand. 

 

Kane

Edited November 27 by Bassconcertina.net
adding something

[Little John]

8 minutes ago, Bassconcertina.net said:

I would be extremely interested. 

 

Here it is.

 

Duckling 35 button Crane.pdf

[Steve Schulteis]

17 minutes ago, Bassconcertina.net said:

Ok, I will need to find the 24 button layout, I don't have a lot of knowledge of anglo layouts past 20 buttons.

 

Here's what I was describing: https://anglopiano.com/?_210_NMmn_50_PQTS._15_cGGIijkLMN_80_oOqpSRuTwU.IHjlMNOopq_110_SrUTvuYw1x&title=C/G Wheatstone 24

 

Edited November 27 by Steve Schulteis

[Bassconcertina.net]

I should mention that there are a couple design choices made by me, that for the time being I am inclined to keep.

 

These models will be square, as to drive down construction costs and/or complexity.

 

For most Unisonoric instruments like duet and English Concertinas I will be using accordions reeds.

 

For Bisonoric instruments like Anglo Concertinas, as well as single action instruments, I will be using harmonium, and American reed organ reeds. 

 

Kane

[Cornfield]

55 minutes ago, Bassconcertina.net said:

I would be happy too, what would you in particular be looking for, Single action or double action, C-bass or G-bass, ect...

 

I've noticed a lack of affordable Bass Concertinas first hand. 

 

Kane

‘As a newcomer to concertina I have no idea about the single-double nomenclature. 
I have a Jack baritone. I would hope to find a bass that goes one or two octaves lower.
In a previous life I played brass instruments, including baritone and tuba. 

Edited November 27 by Cornfield

[Bassconcertina.net]

22 minutes ago, Cornfield said:

‘As a newcomer to concertina I have no idea about the single-double nomenclature. 
I have a Jack baritone. I would hope to find a bass that goes one or two octaves lower.
In a previous life I played brass instruments, including baritone and tuba. 

Ah Ok, let me explain.

 

Double action means that the instrument plays in both the push and the pull of the bellows, so it'd be the same as your Jack baritone. 

 

Single action means that the instrument only plays notes on the push of the bellows, and on the pull it breathes through valves in the instrument to re-inflate itself.

 

Most bass concertinas are single action. This is because being single action makes the instrument respond faster, as well as make the instrument louder, lighter and cheaper.

 

I could make the instruments range from F1-A3

 

This thread has more information on the subject of double versus single action, especially this message:

[Cornfield]

23 minutes ago, Bassconcertina.net said:

Ah Ok, let me explain.

 

Double action means that the instrument plays in both the push and the pull of the bellows, so it'd be the same as your Jack baritone. 

 

Single action means that the instrument only plays notes on the push of the bellows, and on the pull it breathes through valves in the instrument to re-inflate itself.

 

Most bass concertinas are single action. This is because being single action makes the instrument respond faster, as well as make the instrument louder, lighter and cheaper.

 

I could make the instruments range from F1-A3

 

This thread has more information on the subject of double versus single action, especially this message:

Affordability would be more important for a low cost instrument than the action choice.

[David Colpitts]

This thread is great fun to follow, and I am learning much. I hope you'll find the creation of a Hayden duet concertina a worthwhile use of your energies!  As someone (Alex?) said, there's a very expensive and long upgrade path for Haydens with "real concertina" reeds, but that may not matter so much to those of us who already like the accordion-reeded hybrids.  For me, the upgrades to accordion-reeded Haydens is still pricey, and if you could get more buttons into an economical package I bet you'd have a hit.