Diagnosing causes of "slowness"

[Leah Velleman]

I've got a Dickinson Wheatstone anglo that I otherwise love, but that feels "slow" in a way that's hard to quantify. 

 

I've read here that there are a squillion things about the reeds, action, etc that can give the impression of slowness. Are there things I can do at home to determine which one is causing it in my case?

 

(I don't have a concertina repair pro in my area. I'll ship it off to a professional for anything difficult or serious, but it would be nice to know first what's up and whether I can even afford to do anything about it.)

[Richard Mellish]

I think we need to pursue the nature of the slowness. Does it take too much force to push a button down? Once a button is down, does it take longer than you expect for the sound to start? Are some notes slower than others?

[wunks]

I have a Jeffries duet that plays like butter and a Wheatstone Jeff duet that is hard to play fast but is superior for voicing.  The springs on the Wheatstone are stiffer but the buttons are +-1/16" higher above the fret end.  Pushing the button down that extra bit so the finger touches the end provides no advantage in volume or voicing but is essential for referencing where you're at and anchoring.  My friend and neighbor has a (CNC ?) machine and does a lot of work for the local opera stage and orchestra Instruments.  He scanned the end plates of the Wheatstone and will will whip up external spacer plates matching the fretwork.

[d.elliott]

Assuming overall airtightness. Split the problem into three:

 

1. The Action

2. the reeds

3. the valves

 

the action: 

- check the free motion of the keys feeling for catching and ease of button movement

- try and measure the button travel distance, it should be about 3.2mm or 1/8 ins

 

the reeds:

- do they sound breathy or a bit muted & tight

- do the lower reed stall or 'freeze' has higher pressure.

 

the valves:

- are they curled a bit

- do they slap sometimes

-do they seem stiff

 

Finally what sort of stuff are you playing, and do you tend to play quietly or robustly.

 

Dave

[Leah Velleman]

I've been struggling to put my finger on the nature of it — the Wheatstone just feels trickier to play quickly than my other main instrument, an ICC Eirù. On fast single-note tunes like jigs and reels, it feels like I have to work harder to get very short notes to sound fully, and to sound at exactly the right time. But I can't put my finger on what "work harder" means. 

 

Here's my best shot at quantifying the differences between the two. On the Wheatstone...

• The button travel is longer. 
• The buttons take less pressure to push.
• None of the buttons catch or stick. (They don't on the Eirù either.)
• The bellows are more supple.
• The reeds sound much nicer in my opinion — and definitely not breathy or muted.
• There are no individual reeds that sound egregiously slowly. The lowest ones are, as you'd expect, slower than the highest, but it's all within the normal range. 
• It's possible that all the reeds are slightly slow to sound. But if so, it's a very slight slowness — so slight that I'm second-guessing myself on whether it's there at all.

 

[d.elliott]

Often it's the feel, a subjective element that makes an instrument seem slow, button travel can be important in that, how much is the travel, and how does that compare with the Eiru? Part of what you are experiencing may be the differences in harmonics between the accordion based reeds and the traditional reeds. If I remember correctly, the Eiru has reeds which look like traditional reeds, but they are made in the same way as an accordion reed with a 'parallel' vent, not a 'relieved' vent. The reed tongues are not shaped the same as a traditional reed. 

 

The only other comment might be the thickness of the reed tongue in its flexing area. I once had dealings with a new build concertina of a fully traditional style. (not made by Steve Dickinson). The reeds were just too heavy in their areas of flex. They needed their bellies slimming down (don't we all) and then re-tuning to lessen their rigidity and improve response.

 

If you set aside the Eiru, concentrate on the Wheatstone would the sense of slowness diminish?

[Leah Velleman]

Quote

If you set aside the Eiru, concentrate on the Wheatstone would the sense of slowness diminish?

I have mainly been playing the Wheatstone, since I like its tone much better. It doesn't bother me while I'm playing it — but then as soon as I pick up the Eirù, I go "oh thank goodness, this is easier," which is a bit discouraging.

[fred v]

On 9/22/2024 at 7:09 PM, wunks said:

I have a Jeffries duet that plays like butter and a Wheatstone Jeff duet that is hard to play fast but is superior for voicing.  The springs on the Wheatstone are stiffer but the buttons are +-1/16" higher above the fret end.  Pushing the button down that extra bit so the finger touches the end provides no advantage in volume or voicing but is essential for referencing where you're at and anchoring.  My friend and neighbor has a (CNC ?) machine and does a lot of work for the local opera stage and orchestra Instruments.  He scanned the end plates of the Wheatstone and will will whip up external spacer plates matching the fretwork.

I did that to my Wheatstone 21 model and it play fantastic. Having that touch feel to the plate keeps me from mashing the button as before; much easier to let my fingers dance on the buttons. I play fast ITM so that is important.

[d.elliott]

Leah,

Try 'burnishing' the action plate bushings as a first simple step, then consider re-setting up the key travel height.

 

Dave

[Leah Velleman]

Sorry, what does "burnishing the action plate bushings" mean?

[Paul_Hardy]

1 hour ago, Leah Velleman said:

Sorry, what does "burnishing the action plate bushings" mean?

 

I'm fairly sure he means to compress the felt bushings that line the holes that the buttons pass through in the ends of the concertina. If the felt is tight round the buttons, it slows things down.

 

You can do some of it by waggling each button circularly, but much better to take the concertina apart, and the end separate from the action. Then a knitting needle of appropriate size to just fit through the button holes makes a good tool for waggling in and out and round and round. Then when you put the end back on over the buttons, each button should move smoothly without catching.

[seanc]

not at all definitive..

 

But I found that older springs can just somehow "feel" slow.

 

I have found that many times even if they may be the same travel or pressure to activate. The newer springs just seem to close quicker. And also, where they tend to be more uniform in consistancy it gives an over all feeling of beter performace.

 

 

To me, that can give  a feeling of a faster action.

 

[Jake Middleton-Metcalfe]

May I recommend taking this instrument to the closest concertina maker to you? It is really hard to fault find such a subtle problem if you are not experienced in making or repairing these instruments, there are just too many things that could cause it and it's a bit hard to get the feel for making the repair. 

 

It could well have been re valved at some point and the new valves are too stiff for example but making that call just requires a lot of experience with concertina valves and how they feel in your hand.

 

I remember having a similar problem with one of my early prototypes and it was a bit frustrating not knowing why, I quite understand your feeling on this one. 

 

 

[Leah Velleman]

Unfortunately, now that the Button Box and Kensington have closed, I believe the closest maker to me is quite far away. Homewood Music is 18 hours away by car or over 24 hours by train, and I don't know of anyone closer — though if anyone here does know of makers still active in the northeastern US, I'd love to hear about it.

 

There are some people in the area who do basic repairs, but I don't know if I should trust them to do things like tinker with the reeds, and I gather that's one of the things that might end up being required. (Again, if anyone has a recommendation, please let me know.)

[Leah Velleman]

(Oh, I guess Frank Edgley is only 10 hours away if he does repairs. Still longer than I'd like to drive, but not impossible.) 

[Luke Hillman]

Bob Snope, formerly of The Button Box, is operating out of Asheville, NC. Still a ways to drive from your area, but not as bad as Birmingham.

[Chris Ghent]

Carefully take a couple of valves off.  Not on the same button! If the note on the other side of the pan from the removed valve picks up then a revalve might be the answer. The other issue is the shape of the reed at rest.  Trickier to do at home, that one.  

Edited September 27 by Chris Ghent
Wrote “valve” rather than reed. Getting old, not because I wrote it but because I didn’t pick it up!

[seanc]

Leah,

 FWIW... I would reccomend sending to Bob Snope.

 

He recenetIydid some work for me. I did consider sending down and driving and down to pick up. But, for the time, and expenses of making that trip. it was just far better for me to ship it both ways.

 

 

I have ALWAYS had great luck with Bob.