Rochelle Vs 20 button Lachenal.

[Al.]

So I'm yet another person looking to take up Anglo Concertina without the funds for a good English 30 Button.    My budget is liable to be £5-600 and I do not expect to be able to upgrade later.  Putting aside the "limitations" of a 20 button concertina is a Lachenal in this price range going to be easier to play than a Rochelle?   I have also read that it is possible to change a reed out in a Lachenal to give the missing C#, any opinions on the viability and cost of this would be appreciated.

[AndyNT]

I'd be tempted to keep looking for a 30 key instrument to get you started on your Anglo journey, if a 20 button C/G will not let you play the type of music you want e.g. lots of stuff in D.

There are usually one or two Stagi/Gremlin instruments on FB Marketplace in the UK for around £200-300.

[Al.]

I'm not too sure how worried I am about playing in D.  I would rather have a better, more playable instrument and be more limited in keys.  I already play Octave mandolin in sessions so I can switch to that in group playing.   The question is more will a 20 key Lachenal play more easily and need less fettling  than a Stagi/Hohner etc.  Not playing in D is not a deal breaker,   however if replacing a reed to give C# is doable then that's good.  I tried a Rochelle in a workshop the other day and then a (better quality than I could afford). Lachenal and even as a novice could feel the difference. Would there be a difference in the Lachenals favour if I were to buy a 20 button Anglo in my price range.

[Tiposx]

A well prepared 20 button Lachenal is a very fine instrument. I like them with brass reeds and 7 fold bellows. You should be able to get the world's best for much less than your budget!

There are lots around with faults though, ebay tends to attract poor ones.

 

Edited September 20 by Tiposx

[Roger Hare]

I was going to comment on the possibility of getting a G/D Anglo if playing in D was something you might be doing, but you already seem to have that under control.

 

One problem you may not have considered, which could arise, is down to the physical size of the instrument.

 

I just checked the Concertina Connection site and the Rochelle-2 is flagged as being 'Out of production' This (presumably) restricts you to the Rochelle - which is 7.25" across the flats. Personally, when I tried one of these physically larger instruments (it was an English, rather than an Anglo), I found it very difficult to handle. A 2nd-hand 20-button Lachenal will (almost certainly?) be 6.25" across the flats and easier to handle.

 

That point may be worth considering?

 

Another factor is bellows - I'm a bit of a bellows worry-wort - I'd always go for leather bellows if I had the freedom to do so.

 

You've already said that you tried a 20-button Lachenal, and found it good to play. It sounds to me as if you maybe getting dangerously close to answering your own question. Have a look at the Barleycorn web site. There are a couple of 20-button C/Gs there which seem to be in your budget range? (I have no connection, financial or otherwise with Barleycorn, though I have bought from them).

 

Unless you have a very specific range/type/genre of music in mind, a 20-button will not be all that restricting. When I give it a kick, my Tune Book coughs up ~10000 tunes which are playable on a 30-button C/G. An additional kick reveals that ~6000 of those should be playable on a 20-button C/G.

[Tiposx]

Just for interest - I sold a Lachenal 20 button recently, in fully restored condition. It was in tip top order. I couldn't attract an offer of £295 on here, (see buy & sold section 6th February) but it sold on another forum for £250 on the day I posted it.

The good ones do exist if you look hard.

[Al.]

I suppose I am getting closer.   Do the 5 fold bellows on a cheaper concertina cause a problem, also it was a 30 button expensive Lachenal I tried and have heard that the 20 buttons were more cheaply made, I presume they would still feel nicer than an equivalent hybrid concertina for the same money.

[Cathasach]

What kind of music do you want to play on it?

[Tiposx]

Good players do very well with 5 or 6 folds. Have a look at Kathryn Wheeler’s videos in the relevant section of this forum. She plays in the harmonic style, which tends to use more air, but it doesn’t hold her back.
I only play single note Melodies, and not very well, but I like the freedom that 7 folds gives me.

The cheapest Lachenal 20 b are made to a similar standard as the cheap 30 b ones, at least those that I have inspected. They were starter instruments. But with that comes a light and lively instrument with a unique sound. I like to think it is an authentic old-time dancing tone, but that is just imagined.

[Al.]

1 hour ago, Cathasach said:

What kind of music do you want to play on it?

Session tunes, English and irish (when in the right key or with substitute notes) also accompanying myself singing.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Get what you can afford and the real musician inside you will flourish in good time. ( Whichever kind you choose).

I have my often commented upon Italian made Hohner branded Anglo 30 key ..for over 25 years now.. and very pleased with it. There's been some issues over time ( like most instruments of any price range) but I never bothered to buy any other.

Play classical music on, and I write my own music more than ever with the aid of that same 30 key Anglo.

Best of luck with your eventual choice.

 

[Roger Hare]

3 hours ago, Al. said:

...have heard that the 20 buttons were more cheaply made, I presume they would still feel nicer than an equivalent hybrid concertina for the same money....

That may (or may not) be the case, but a 20-button vintage instrument bought from a reputable dealer will have been refurbished before sale, and stands a fair chance of feeling nicer, and being in better nick than when it left the factory mumble years ago.🙂

Edited September 20 by Roger Hare

[alex_holden]

13 hours ago, Al. said:

I suppose I am getting closer.   Do the 5 fold bellows on a cheaper concertina cause a problem, also it was a 30 button expensive Lachenal I tried and have heard that the 20 buttons were more cheaply made, I presume they would still feel nicer than an equivalent hybrid concertina for the same money.

 

It depends on the instrument. Bellows quality varies quite a bit: badly made or worn-out 8 fold bellows may have less lung capacity than well made good condition 5 fold bellows. Bellows can be replaced but good sets aren't cheap. Also reed efficiency is super important; high quality reeds use far less air than poor ones, and that's not something you can easily fix.

[Theo]

20 button Lachenals vary greatly in playability.  Some are a delight, some are hard work.  If you decide on a Lachenal it’s very important to be able to try the instrument before you buy, or at least buy from someone who will allow a return. 

if you want to leave open the possibility of playing in D you might be able to find a nice 22 key Lachenal.  These are not common,  but not super scarce.

 

[Al.]

Thanks everyone, that's given me a lot to think about.   Does anybody have advice on if it is a good idea to change a button out to give a C#?

[Oberon]

9 hours ago, Al. said:

Thanks everyone, that's given me a lot to think about.   Does anybody have advice on if it is a good idea to change a button out to give a C#?

Replacing a reed on a 20 button lachenal to give it a C# would be impractical and likely a bit of expense. If you aimed for at least a 26 key lachenal, you could play more tunes on it. Honestly if you intend to play Irish trad music, you'll need more, and you'll absolutely need that C#.

 

I went the route of starting with a 20 button lachenal, then a 28, and ultimately the both just held me back. They won't perform particularly quickly and you may be fighting with it to get it to play at speed. Id recommend a 30 button hybrid with accordion reeds over a 20 button, but from a reputable company. If you can afford a nicer instrument, over maybe $1300 USD, you have a load of options available. Barleycorn may have some cheaper options with more buttons too

 

You could probably make due with a 5 fold bellows but 6 is the standard for Irish trad and Id be probably quite mad if someone forced me down to 5 folds at this point. That extra capacity is very helpful 

[Al.]

Playing Devil's advocate for a while.  I played some tunes on the Octave mandolin yesterday and was surprised how many C#s there were.  If I went the 30 button route I presume the Rochelle would be the best bet in my price range.   Simon I would be keen to hear about your Hohner as it is a brand that most people seem to avoid,( No offence meant).   

Edited September 22 by Al.

[Takayuki YAGI]

You could ask Barleycorn if they have 22 button Lachenal C/G in stock. There is C#, although perhaps slightly more expensive than 20 buttons.