EC tuning mystery solved....I think

[Matthew Heumann]

I don't know if any other English players have run into this, but the instrument that I'm tuning now had the lowest G# pitched to F. This is the third time that I've run into a low G# tuned to F or F# and it always perplexed me until yesterday when I was explaining to someone that EC had replicate notes: G# & Ab, D# & Eb. Then it dawned on me that by pitching the lowest G# to F or F#, an extra note of range is added, with the low Ab still available when a G# is needed. So simple............................yet so weird! What was stranger was that this time instead of removing metal at the base of the reed to lower the pitch, solder was added to the tip......a lot nastier to correct than filing.

[alex_holden]

8 hours ago, Matthew Heumann said:

This is the third time that I've run into a low G# tuned to F or F# and it always perplexed me until yesterday when I was explaining to someone that EC had replicate notes: G# & Ab, D# & Eb. Then it dawned on me that by pitching the lowest G# to F or F#, an extra note of range is added, with the low Ab still available when a G# is needed.

 

Only if it's tuned Equal Temperament, which early ECs probably weren't when they left the factory. Another option is to only tune one of the two G#s to F, so you get the extra note in one bellows direction but the G# is still available if you need it.

 

8 hours ago, Matthew Heumann said:

What was stranger was that this time instead of removing metal at the base of the reed to lower the pitch, solder was added to the tip......a lot nastier to correct than filing.

 

Solder is my preferred way to lower a bass reed for a modification like this. If somebody ever wants to put it back to original solder is very easy to remove from the tip, but steel that has been filed off the base can't be reinstated.

[Little John]

12 hours ago, Matthew Heumann said:

I don't know if any other English players have run into this, but the instrument that I'm tuning now had the lowest G# pitched to F.

 

The mystery to me is not that someone has done this to get a lower note, but that they chose to do it with the G# rather than the Ab. If Ab is lowered to F then F is on the side it should be, albeit not in the normal position. This seems much more natural, because (a) it maintains the alternating left-right fingering for scales and (b) it allows the F-C open fifth and the F major chord to be fingered all on one side, as normal.

 

Choosing to lower G# suggests the players at the time valued Ab much more than G#. That would suggest it was done a long time ago since (as far as I know) sharp keys are much more popular than flat keys nowadays.

[wunks]

5 hours ago, alex_holden said:

 

 

 

 

Solder is my preferred way to lower a bass reed for a modification like this. If somebody ever wants to put it back to original solder is very easy to remove from the tip, but steel that has been filed off the base can't be reinstated.

I've posted about this a couple of times but I'd like to mention that a slice of refrigerator magnet about one third of the reed length will lower the pitch a whole step.  easy to do, easy to reverse, easy to experiment.  Stays put.

Edited July 20 by wunks

[d.elliott]

Down tuning the low G# to F nat. gives the root note to the key of F (one flat on the key signature). If you are playing in 'flat' keys then retaining the low Ab in it's original position makes sense. All my playing menagerie from G Bass to treble have this configuration, all but one from original manufacture.

 

For this modification I use low temperature solder, also easy to reverse.

Edited July 21 by d.elliott
adding data

[Matthew Heumann]

"Easy to reverse" is relative. In my case removing all the solder still left me with a G -45 cents. It took a lot of removal to get it to G#, but its good now!

 

Thanks for all the input gang!

[alex_holden]

5 hours ago, Matthew Heumann said:

"Easy to reverse" is relative. In my case removing all the solder still left me with a G -45 cents. It took a lot of removal to get it to G#, but its good now!

 

It sounds to me like someone put some solder on the tip to lower it, but it wasn't enough so they filed the root as well. Removing the solder weight got you part way to the original note, then you had to remove a lot of steel to correct for the root having been filed weaker.

[Matthew Heumann]

No, there wasn't evidence of filing the root, its just that I don't think the reed was never at G#, most likely a G reed flattened, and being VERY thick baritone reeds, it took a lot at the tip to bring it to G#, but it's still a very thick reed throughout, so all's good.

[RogerT]

“Only if it's tuned Equal Temperament, which early ECs probably weren't when they left the factory.”

I am curious about this. Given an English concertina is supposed to be fully chromatic surely it would be tuned to equal temperament as there is no scope for anything else? 

[alex_holden]

1 hour ago, RogerT said:

“Only if it's tuned Equal Temperament, which early ECs probably weren't when they left the factory.”

I am curious about this. Given an English concertina is supposed to be fully chromatic surely it would be tuned to equal temperament as there is no scope for anything else? 

 

It comes down to the fact that there are 14 buttons per octave rather than 12. Basically you can use a non-equal temperament if you are able to tune Ab and G# differently, and the same with Eb and D#.

[RogerT]

Ah right, I've seen this on Anglos but not on any English 'tinas, and I see a lot of those…many more than Anglos.

[Michael Eskin]

Considering that Just intonation would require specifying the root key to establish the correct tuning for a G# vs. an Ab, how would a non-equal temperament English concertina be tuned?   

For example, the chanter on concert set of Uilleann pipes is tuned in Just intonation based integer ratios of the root note D.  Similarly, a chanter on a flat set of Uilleann pipes in the key of B would be be tuned in based integer ratios of the root note B, there would be little in common between the two chanter note frequencies between the D and B chanters.

I really don't know how this is typically done when English concertina are made, but I would expect (probably naively) an English concertina to be tuned to equal temperament by default being a fully chromatic instrument, unless someone specified that they'd like it to be specifically tuned consonant with a specific Just intontation root pitch, like D, to play with other instrument tune in the Just intontation based on a specific pitch.

[alex_holden]

5 hours ago, Michael Eskin said:

Considering that Just intonation would require specifying the root key to establish the correct tuning for a G# vs. an Ab, how would a non-equal temperament English concertina be tuned?   

For example, the chanter on concert set of Uilleann pipes is tuned in Just intonation based integer ratios of the root note D.  Similarly, a chanter on a flat set of Uilleann pipes in the key of B would be be tuned in based integer ratios of the root note B, there would be little in common between the two chanter note frequencies between the D and B chanters.

I really don't know how this is typically done when English concertina are made, but I would expect (probably naively) an English concertina to be tuned to equal temperament by default being a fully chromatic instrument, unless someone specified that they'd like it to be specifically tuned consonant with a specific Just intontation root pitch, like D, to play with other instrument tune in the Just intontation based on a specific pitch.

 

We're reaching the limits of my tuning theory knowledge so I may be wrong, however I'll have a go...

 

The reason temperaments were invented is that Just (Pure) Intonation on a fixed tuning instrument only really works for one key. Tempering the tuning means making the intervals less pure in a way that allows multiple keys to sound acceptable. There are lots of different temperament schemes. Equal temperament is the most popular today; the idea is that the intervals are all the same size and it sounds equally good/bad in every key. The main drawback of ET is that thirds are quite impure. Other temperaments make different compromises. I think the idea of meantone is that it sounds equally good in several keys, until you reach the wolf interval, at which point it sounds horrible. Making an instrument with more than 12 intervals in an octave increases the number of keys you can play before you run into the wolf. There are other temperaments (e.g. Well Temperament) that don't have a wolf interval, so you can play in any key, but each key has a different 'flavour', some of them sounding sweeter than ET and others more dissonant.

 

You're right that modern ECs are almost always tuned to ET because most other instruments are also tuned in ET by default, it's the simplest and easiest option if you're using an electronic tuner, and modern listeners are used to how it sounds and generally aren't bothered by the impure thirds. I'm not sure any of that was true back when the EC was first invented.

[Theo]

There is another possible explanation for the enharmonic notes on an EC.  If they were not there there would be gaps in the layout.  So perhaps it's just a convenient way of making a neat and more consistent pattern of buttons?

[Richard Mellish]

5 minutes ago, Theo said:

There is another possible explanation for the enharmonic notes on an EC.  If they were not there there would be gaps in the layout.  So perhaps it's just a convenient way of making a neat and more consistent pattern of buttons?

On the face of it, adding buttons that (with ET) would be duplicates is wasteful; but that is exactly what happens on an Anglo, maintaining the pattern of notes on both rows; and on a 39- or 40-key instrument there are many duplications. I don't play English, but I presume a player expects to find the sharps and flats adjacent to the naturals.

[alex_holden]

2 hours ago, Theo said:

There is another possible explanation for the enharmonic notes on an EC.  If they were not there there would be gaps in the layout.  So perhaps it's just a convenient way of making a neat and more consistent pattern of buttons?

 

I would guess that's the most likely reason it has them. The ability to tune them differently in non-equal temperaments is an incidental benefit.

[Don Taylor]

11 hours ago, Theo said:

There is another possible explanation for the enharmonic notes on an EC.  If they were not there there would be gaps in the layout.  So perhaps it's just a convenient way of making a neat and more consistent pattern of buttons?

I don't think the layout is just a convenient way of making a neat and more consistent pattern of buttons, rather a neat and more consistent pattern of tonal space.  Wheatstone was a very prominent scientist who had a lifelong interest in acoustics.

 

See  this (very long, scholarly article) in the Proceedings of the ICA:

"The Wheatstone Concertina and Symmetrical Arrangements of Tonal Space"

 

Therein:

An 1848 advertisement for the concertina
described these accidentals as “for the purpose of making the chords in different
keys more perfect and harmonious than they can be on the Organ or Pianoforte”
(Wheatstone & Company, 1848). In its early decades of production, Wheatstone &
Company tuned their concertinas to a species of unequal temperament which
yielded two different pitches for these enharmonic pairs.

 

Edited September 1 by Don Taylor

[Michael Eskin]

Thank you Don for sharing that!  Very interesting!