Overwhelmed by all of the variations of Duet Concertinas

[Dimble]

On 6/1/2024 at 10:12 PM, Ericaland said:

I guess I'm looking advice about: should I be patient and save money to increase my budget to, say $1,000 (or, does it need to be more?), or just get started playing, buy the Elise, understanding I'll want to upgrade. If I am patient and save my money, then what style do I want.  I'm super overwhelmed by the varieties of keyboard arrangements (Maccann versus Hayden), compounded by all the variations of numbers of keys available.

 

@Ericaland

Welcome to the duet enthusiast club! I just went down the path you're on and ended up with the Peacoxk Custom from Conceivable Connection. It's hard to figure out your first instrument, but worth it. If this is too much info, the TL;DR is that I recommend getting the Elise and figuring out the upgrade later if you find you need it.

 

In terms of the different layouts, I'm very happy that I went Hayden. First consideration for me: does the layout make sense in my brain.  Spoiler: yes, because it's very logical and that reduces learning curve and versatility. I tried a Striso board ( https://www.striso.org/ ) to ensure that I liked the layout. A similar board like the Koop would be great if you or someone you know likes electronic projects: https://www.koopinstruments.com/instrument-projects/melodicade-mx

The Hayden layout also can be used with high end keyboards/midi controllers like the Lumatone. https://www.lumatone.io/ That's not a cheap way to try the layout, but it's nice to know that your concertina skills might be transferable later. 

 

Second consideration: availability of instruments. Used instruments in the Mccann layout are regularly available. Others less so, and Haydens almost never.  See https://concertina.co.uk/stock-selection/duet-concertinas/ for more info. The one advantage of this is that used Haydens probably won't lose their value too badly if you can wait to sell it. 

 

When buying new, the situation is reversed. Hayden duets are available in short order from Concertina Connection and Stagi through Libery Bellows https://www.libertybellows.com/shop/Concertinas/Duet-Concertinas/p/NEW-Mahogany-Stagi-Hayden-Duet-Concertina-M-46-x35303427.htm . The CC Elise's quality and features match it's price but will get you started. The CC Troubador is likely value for money but has fewer buttons than I needed for jazz. I'm happy with my CC Peacock custom, but it's quite expensive. Upgrade is a good option, but Troubador to Peacock doesn't seem to be a full trade in value upgrade. You can check with them via email if you have questions. They are responsive. 

 

I got a Stagi Hayden and loved it's tone, charm, and price, but had to return it.  Some buttons had a push force of > 300 grams. Normal is something like 60 - 80 grams, so that 300 g meant pushing hard and playing slow, which was a deal-breaker for me. Your milage may vary.

 

If you are willing to wait, you may be able to get a Hayden from Edward Jay http://edwardjay.net/paragraphsView.aspx?siteid=61&headerid=107&siteHeader=FAQs or Holden. Unfortunately, neither is taking orders when last I checked and both would be more than your budget. 

 

Third consideration: button count. I just looked at the sheet music of songs that I want to play to see which notes I would need. Counting the times each sharp or flat came up in traditional jazz and Irish music lead me to realize that I needed a fully chromatic instrument, 42 buttons minimum. Roughly speaking the sharps are required to play with strings, the flats with horns. 

 

I suspect that this will matter less to you as a player who can play by ear and who plans to play alone. Transposing between keys is much easier on this instrument than practically any other. This means that if you run out of buttons, just shift the note you start on right, left, up, or down and try the song again with the same fingering pattern. It's not completely trivial on smaller instruments and doesn't work in every case, but it's quite manageable. You could start a new thread on that topic if you have any trouble. 

 

So... an Elise might be the way to go. 

Edited June 4 by Dimble
Tagged OP

[Daniel Hersh]

On 6/3/2024 at 3:44 AM, David Barnert said:

Not for me, thanks, unless @Ericaland or somebody else really wants to know.

 

9 hours ago, Dimble said:

I'd be curious. 

 

Ok, I will see what I can find out.

[Ericaland]

Wow! I just had a chance to read through all the responses. You are all incredibly helpful. Thank you so much for the information! I appreciate understanding a little more about how many buttons I'd ultimately want for minimum, and the differences between all these systems. I'm fairly impatient when I want to start something, so based on my budget, I'm about 90% sure I'm going to just buy an Elise to get things started....and put a little line item in my monthly budget to start saving for a fancier model...and now I have a better idea of what types of models to keep my eye on (wow is that overwhelming too!). If I decide it's not for me, can always put that money towards a vacation. Haha.

[DootDoot]

As a beginner who picked up an Elise as a first concertina two weeks ago, I feel I'm uniquely unqualified to answer your questions, however I can share my experience thus far.

 

I have a limited background in music: a couple theory classes in 20 years ago and a collection of guitars that have been collecting dust for 15.  I'm relearning how to read music and I have some recollection of chord structures but that's about it.  I have no prior playing experience with any kind of bellowed instrument.

 

Pros:

• The Hayden layout is pretty straightforward and it took an hour or two with a diagram to be able to navigate the buttons.  A couple friends who are much better musicians figured it out in about 10 minutes.
• It's simple enough that I've been able to learn a few melodies in the past weeks.  The range of the instrument lends itself to Irish/English folk.  (I've been finding stuff on thesession.com.)
• The instrument does what I expect it to and is comfortable to play.  The most I play at once is an hour, or so.
• The action on all of the keys is uniform, which wasn't the case with some used concertinas in the same price range.
• It sounds nice and is loud, but not uncomfortably so.

Cons:

(I'm not sure if these are design issues or if I'm just doing something wrong.)

• The hand straps seem to to run large?  I'm a guy with medium-sized paws and it feels too loose at the smallest notch.  It takes some wheedling for the instrument to feel stable.
• Playing chords, especially on the left hand, tends to drown out the melody on the right hand.  Again, this might be a matter of technique.
• The notes available have been a limitation when selecting music.  As others have said, I've run into roadblocks around the upper range and some absent accidentals. I would like more buttons
• As others have said, there are a limited number of Hayden duet-specific materials out there.  (I bought mine used and it didn't come with a copy of Wim's tutor which is entirely a me problem.)

 

Overall, I like the Elise a lot and it's been easier than expected to start playing basic stuff. I have no regrets this early in the game and it feels like an excellent tool for learning.  That said, I'm keeping my eye out for deals on a fully chromatic instrument, but I don't feel like it's a pressing need.

 

Cheers

 

P.S. Shout out to Daddy Long Les for making an Elise-specific video series.

 

Edited June 6 by DootDoot

[Ericaland]

2 hours ago, DootDoot said:

As a beginner who picked up an Elise as a first concertina two weeks ago, I feel I'm uniquely unqualified to answer your questions, however I can share my experience thus far.

Ha! I feel like this makes you qualified to answer I appreciate hearing from someone with similar musical knowledge to me who's in the middle of figuring it out. Thanks for the feedback and link to the videos. Best of luck on your music adventure!

[John Wild]

5 hours ago, DootDoot said:

The hand straps seem to to run large?  I'm a guy with medium-sized paws and it feels too loose at the smallest notch.  It takes some wheedling for the instrument to feel stable.

If you mark a point on the strap which would be the ideal position for you to have it fastened, them you can pierce an extra hole in the strap. Make sure the tool you would use for the purpose is not pointing anywhere towards the bellows.

[David Colpitts]

I got tons of fun from the Elise, and (I suspect) depending on the factory "reed run" that fed your instrument, they can sound very nice, indeed.  If I'd had my druthers, I'd have paid Button Box/Concertina Connection twice as much for twice as many buttons!  But the actual ratios are more like 1.5 to 3 kilodollars for another 8 or 10 buttons, unless the newer Stagi Hayden is a compromise you can live with.  My lucky day was the day Doug at Button Box asked me if I'd "tried the BASTARI" up on the shelf....and when I looked, he meant the OLD Bastarii, that looks and feels like it should, according to the original Hayden specs.  I always suggest people might cast about for a used one of them.  Ya never know.....They made (Inventor, or David B., correct me, please, if I'm way off) some 30-40 of them in the 80's.  Would that the nice folks at the "new" Stagi had the old plans.

Edited June 7 by David Colpitts
corrected for name of "old" Bastari

[David Barnert]

10 hours ago, DootDoot said:

Playing chords, especially on the left hand, tends to drown out the melody on the right hand.  Again, this might be a matter of technique.

 

This is a problem that is unavoidable but not insurmountable. The reeds on the left are lower in pitch, therefore larger in size, therefore louder than the reeds on the right. You can’t change any of that, but you can address it with your technique. Just because chords have 3 or more notes doesn’t mean you have to play them all at once. Bounce back and forth between chord notes, playing only one (or sometimes two) at a time. If a note in the chord is present in the melody that the right hand is playing, leave that note out of the chord that the left hand is playing. Also, shorten the notes the left hand plays: leave some “daylight” between one note (or chord) and the next. This will decrease the total amount of sound coming from the left and allow the melody on the right to shine through.

 

1 hour ago, David Colpitts said:

My lucky day was the day Doug at Button Box asked me if I'd "tried the Stagi" up on the shelf....and when I looked, he meant the OLD Stagi, that looks and feels like it should, according to the original Hayden specs.

 

Are you sure you didn’t mean “Bastari?”

 

1 hour ago, David Colpitts said:

They made (Inventor, or David B., correct me, please, if I'm way off) some 30-40 of them in the 80's.

 

I may have known the number once, but it’s long gone. Sorry.

[David Colpitts]

8 hours ago, David Barnert said:

 

 

 

Are you sure you didn’t mean “Bastari?”

 

 

I may have known the number once, but it’s long gone. Sorry.

Of course that's what I meant.  Thanks!  It's an old BASTARI and well-loved.

[seanc]

Erica, I think you're on the right track. If the Elise fits your budget. It is a great way to give it a try. See if it works for you. And once you get a bit of experience take it from there.

 

The Elise is a good box. It is good enough to get you started. Easily available. And the book that comes with it will give you enough to start you down the learning path the right way.

 

Once you have gotten comfortable enough and are ready to move up. You will then have a much better understanding of the hardware aspect and can decide if the Hayden is the right system for you and you want a faster /bigger one. Or, maybe look at other systems (crane, Maccan, etc).

 

You have also read here about, home keys, range, etc..  That may not to mean a lot to you at this point. And, honestly, as you work through the Elise tutor it does not really come into play. But, once you start to play the tunes that YOU like and that you want to play you will get a better handle on what that aspect of what that conversation is. But, as a newbie, don't get  hung up or worried about it at this point.

 

The biggest thing is to have SOMETHING. And make an attempt to learn it.

Edited June 13 by seanc

[Daniel Hersh]

On 6/4/2024 at 6:05 AM, Dimble said:

I'd be curious. 

 

I've been emailing with Iris, and she has ok'ed my posting the following which she posted on the Duet Concertina Workshop Facebook group:

 

"This whole project - including the publication of the ‘Tutor & Music Anthology’ book - seems to be taking its own time! However, all elements have gradually been coming together as planned, and due to the enthusiasm, support and co-operation of players of all Duet systems, there is now enough excellent material to fill several ‘volumes’…
I’m therefore currently working with a small team of editors to select and finalise the book’s content, and thus produce a great ‘resource’ ie. the sort of reference book that I would have appreciated during my Duet journey…
Just to clarify, the ‘Tutor’ and ‘Anthology’ will be published together, as they support and expand on each other. I will give more details of the content when I announce the publication date. Meanwhile thank you all for your goodwill and continued patience in waiting for what I believe will be a worthwhile publication to come to fruition - it is much appreciated…
Cheers! Iris B."

[rlgph]

To provide context, i mostly play American folk, Americana, and some pop music.  Commonly, i jam with others (mostly guitars), but also play tunes by myself.  I prefer to play by ear, but with effort, can work out a tune from sheet music if sufficiently motivated.  I also mostly play the melody (or a simple pentatonic accompaniment), but can (if sufficiently motivated) work out an octave-based left hand accompaniment to a right hand melody.

 

I started with an Elise (in my late 60s), upgraded to a Peacock, and then to a Wakker W1 as a 70th birthday present for myself. I was able to use the CC upgrade policy at each upgrade, so i didn't lose any money. I actually upgraded to the Peacock rather quickly, not because the Elise had too few buttons to keep me entertained playing tunes by ear, but because i recognized from playing a Hayden ipad ap that i wanted a mirrored left hand button arrangement.

 

IMO the major downside of the Elise for jamming on American folk songs was that it was difficult to control the volume and so was too loud for my fellow jammers.  Had i not upgraded i would probably have added some baffles.

 

Finally, i found the Hayden system very easy to learn to play simple melodies on the right side by ear.  (Remember, i started in my late 60s.) The learning curve for left hand accompaniment was much steeper for me; admittedly, i have not put a lot of effort into doing that.

 

The bottom line is that i have no qualms about recommending starting with an Elise for the style of music i like to play.