Are Duet Concertina Systems "Convertible"? (Amateur repairs/buying question)

[John Ray]

Hello all,

I'm new to the forums here, but have been on an absolute concertina binge, drooling over every concertina I can find while I try and convince my wife I need another instrument. I have no experience with concertinas, but I've played a great many number of instruments either professionally (drums and percussion), or just as a hobby (just about anything you can think of, clarinet to double bass to banjo to tongue drums to...😴). I enjoy all sorts of types of music, but I really love playing jazz if I'm able to on a particular instrument. Otherwise, I take poor, amateurish stabs at baroque pieces.

In my search, I decided originally that I wanted to buy a duet concertina, but was discouraged by the lack of affordable Maccanns. As logical as the readily available Haydens are, I drew the layouts on a piece of paper and tried to "play" some chords on it, and found it quite awkward, especially chords with larger intervals.

I've found a few Maccanns that are just outside my price range, and plenty that are well, well above it. Because of all this, I thought about just buying an English Concertina, which I could much more easily find and would also enjoy.

However, I had another idea. While doing some amateur repairs and tuning on a crummy old USSR accordion, I thought about the fact that I could rewax in the reeds in the wrong place while putting it back together. Could I take, say, a Hayden concertina, and with a little finagling change the layout to an equivalently keyed Maccann or other system? In short, can you (relatively easily) change the positions of the reeds to change a concertina from one system to another (Hayden -> Maccann)? Or even one type to another (English -> Duet)?

Maybe that's not possible on a concertina, or just a stupid idea in general. Let me know you all's thoughts either way.

Thanks,

John

[Theo]

The simple answer is no. It’s not just the reeds that are in different positions.  The physical buttons are in a different pattern too.  So you would have to make a new mechanism and new woodwork to mount the buttons on.  It would be almost as easy to make a new concertina!

[John Ray]

Drats! Thanks for the reply. I was hoping that the mechanisms could stay the same, but would just be venting air to different reeds. At least, for say, Duet to different Duet. To my inexperienced eyes, it looked like the buttons were mostly in the same space.

"Making a new mechanism" is a bit above my pay-grade. I'm just a dolt with a screwdriver and a dremel. I'm having a hard enough time just replacing springs and other metal wire inside my accordion. Looks like I'll just have to save up some extra money.

[alex_holden]

I agree with Theo. It's not completely impossible but it would be a lot of work, and if you start with a budget entry-level Hayden you will just end up making an entry-level Maccann, not a quality instrument that you will want to keep playing long-term.

 

I don't think you will regret starting with a good vintage Maccann or Crane. Personally I find the Crane layout more logical, though there are fewer of them around on the used market.

[Alan Day]

I converted a Jeffries Duet to a BpF C Anglo .

A very difficult job.

Al

[Little John]

4 minutes ago, Alan Day said:

I converted a Jeffries Duet to a BpF C Anglo .

A very difficult job.

Al

 

And considering the Jeffries duet layout is based on the Anglo to start with, that's as easy as a conversion gets.

[Little John]

11 hours ago, John Ray said:

I thought about the fact that I could rewax in the reeds in the wrong place

 

Concertinas with real concertina reeds aren't waxed in. They just slide mechanically into a perfectly fitting slot. But the reeds are of several different sizes, so swapping them round isn't a trivial excersise.

 

11 hours ago, John Ray said:

I thought about just buying an English Concertina, which I could much more easily find and would also enjoy.

 

Unless you particularly want to play melody with the right hand and chords/countermelody with the left, then I think English could be the way to go.

[RAc]

13 hours ago, John Ray said:

I enjoy all sorts of types of music, but I really love playing jazz if I'm able to on a particular instrument.

 

You may want to look up an EC player Rainer Süssmilch who specializes on Jazz on a Concertina, or @Randy Stein. I myself play a Crane duet, and every once in a while I attempt jazzish chord patterns, but they do not fall very easily under the fingers. Not being familiar with the EC in practice, I get the impression that Jazz appears to come more naturally on the EC. 

[Alan Day]

I converted a Jeffries Duet to a BpF C Anglo .

A very difficult job.

Al

[Alan Day]

I did try and play the Duet and Anglo systems together, but after a lot of practicing I found that I was playing Duet chords on the Anglo ,so I had to make up my mind ,do I play Anglo or Duet and decided after playing the Anglo for nearly 30 years (then) I would stick with the Anglo. By coincidence I met up with a trombone player who played in Bp so I could play along with him, so all the work I put in was not wasted and the concertina was being played.

 

Al

 

[hjcjones]

39 minutes ago, Alan Day said:

I converted a Jeffries Duet to a BpF C Anglo .

A very difficult job.

Al

At least the Jeffries Duet has the same physical arrangement of the buttons as the anglo, which makes conversion possible.  The other duet systems each have visibly different button layouts, which would rule out converting from one to another, and of course the EC bears no relation to any of them.  That's without the difficulties of different sized reed slots and chambers.

 

The OP hasn't said what his budget is. My impression is that duets are generally cheaper than the equivalent EC or anglo. Of course it may be easier to find cheap entry-level instruments in those systems.

 

In my opinion it is always worth setting your budget higher than you can really afford, and find some way to pay for it. You'll seldom regret buying a better instrument, and if you find you don't get on with it you can probably sell it again without making a significant loss, and possibly even a profit. 

[wunks]

20 minutes ago, Alan Day said:

I converted a Jeffries Duet to a BpF C Anglo .

A very difficult job.

Al

This can of course be done in reverse and with a high quality modern instrument with accordion reeds shouldn't be difficult.  Actually, there are probably some fine vintage empty boxes out there that have been robbed of their reeds due to the convenient mythology of difficult playing attributes ( true also for other vintage duets ).  I find the JD capable of any music you care to bring to it including jazz forms.  Additionally, I believe any maker that is tooled up for Anglos could make one without much trouble.

[seanc]

My Maccan is available and I would say very reasonable….

 

if anything across the board maccans are way under priced tight now. 
 

with any duet, if you try to save money and go short on buttons, it is likely you will quickly want something with more buttons. Imo @ 55 seems to me to be the right number in terms of size and range.

 

[Alan Day]

9 hours ago, hjcjones said:

At least the Jeffries Duet has the same physical arrangement of the buttons as the anglo, which makes conversion possible.  The other duet systems each have visibly different button layouts, which would rule out converting from one to another, and of course the EC bears no relation to any of them.  That's without the difficulties of different sized reed slots and chambers.

 

The OP hasn't said what his budget is. My impression is that duets are generally cheaper than the equivalent EC or anglo. Of course it may be easier to find cheap entry-level instruments in those systems.

 

In my opinion it is always worth setting your budget higher than you can really afford, and find some way to pay for it. You'll seldom regret buying a better instrument, and if you find you don't get on with it you can probably sell it again without making a significant loss, and possibly even a profit. 

That was the problem Howard ,the layout style etc was so similar to my Anglos that suddenly playing a Duet chord whilst playing the anglo was why I had to make the decision.

Al

[John Ray]

I was expecting the thread to die after the first reply. Thanks for the engagement!

 

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if you start with a budget entry-level Hayden you will just end up making an entry-level Maccann

Point taken.
 

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Unless you particularly want to play melody with the right hand and chords/countermelody with the left, then I think English could be the way to go.

I think sometimes in my day dreams I imagine playing these really elaborate counterpoint pieces and passages that realistically, I'll never be able to play--and the freedom to do that (even just in theory) is kind of attractive to me about the duet. But in reality, I probably wouldn't get that far or need that capability.

 

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The OP hasn't said what his budget is. My impression is that duets are generally cheaper than the equivalent EC or anglo.

Really? That's surprising to me. My budget is probably no more than $1000, but I could stretch it a little if I really found a one-of-a-kind deal. I've found a lot more plentifully-keyed similar-range ECs than duets, at least in my estimation, knowing really nothing else about the instruments (ie., maybe the duets I found had nicer bellows, or better keys, or something else I can't really distinguish as a neophyte). What I've read seems to corroborate this in that duets are generally rarer.

I almost reached out to buy the English one here on this forum, but my wife was pretty sketched out (rightfully so, I suppose) by the prospect of paying a stranger a thousand dollars on the honor-system. I even offered to drive to Iowa (about a 9 hour drive) to get it in person, but alas, she still was kind of weirded out by it.

 

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A very difficult job.

If it's difficult for you, it's probably impossible for me.

 

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I find the JD capable of any music you care to bring to it including jazz forms

I don't think I've found a single Jeffries duet in my search. Granted, I was only eyeing the Maccanns, and a lot of my searches specified that, but I would have thought I'd see more than that. What do you like about it as opposed to other systems?

 

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You may want to look up an EC player Rainer Süssmilch who specializes on Jazz on a Concertina, or Randy Stein

I'll check them out! Thanks!

[Little John]

4 hours ago, John Ray said:

My budget is probably no more than $1000, ...

 

The only Maccanns you're likely to find within this price range will be 39 or 46 button models. These have a rather limited note range. In particular, the right hand side goes no lower than G4 (G above middle C). Similar sized Crane duets go down to C4 (middle C) on the right and C3 on the left; but are vanishingly rare.

 

So for me it's still pointing to an English. A standard 48 button model starts at G3 and extends for 3 1/2 octaves to C7, fully chromatically.

 

4 hours ago, John Ray said:

... in my day dreams I imagine playing these really elaborate counterpoint pieces and passages ...

 

Some people can actually do this on the English system. Listen, for example, to Dave Townsend on Portrait of a Concertina. If, after playing English for a year or two, you find that you (like me and most other English players) can't do it, try a 48 button Crane duet. The transition isn't that difficult. That's how my concertina journey began.

[seanc]

I would say that you’d be better served saving up. 
 

I’d shoot for the 2-3000 range.

 

[wunks]

8 hours ago, John Ray said:

 

I don't think I've found a single Jeffries duet in my search. Granted, I was only eyeing the Maccanns, and a lot of my searches specified that, but I would have thought I'd see more than that. What do you like about it as opposed to other systems?

 

I can't compare the JD to other duet systems as I've never played any but the fan shape of the pattern is very user friendly as with the Anglo ( I have the same problem as Allen in reverse. ).  The voicing capabilities are fantastic and I can play in any key, any kind of music as fast or slow as I'd like.   I'd suggest an opportunistic approach.  With your limited budget I'd have an eye for a local deal on any system ( especially Anglos because they're in demand ) and re-sell or swap till you find the right box.  I wouldn't discount the Hayden system.  With any concertina I think you'll find small chord shapes work best to maintain a balance with the melody.  I think there's a Stagi Hayden up on Reverb at the moment within your ( extended ) budget range.