Disadvantages of antique concertinas?

[Bouleaux]

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking about for some time now, but after recently moving to a new town without an easily accessible piano I've finally decided it's time to start learning a truly portable instrument. Since I'm not looking at getting into Irish music but rather want to play all sorts of stuff, I've come to the conclusion any of the duet systems is most certainly what I need. After reading through quite a lot of discussion on the matter it seems to me there are a significant amount of cons to all the cheaper contemporary models (your Elises, Stagis etc.) whereas the hand-crafted ones are out of my price range and I'd also rather not have to spend multiple years on a waiting list.

 

So that leaves buying a vintage instrument as the only relatively affordable option. A couple of years ago I bought an old chemnitzer on a whim, but never really got into playing it, mainly because its size made lugging it around a hassle, but also because a couple of really critical notes sounded off even after I had had it restored. The guy who worked on it said the reeds were so old and worn (this was an instrument from the 1930's), there wasn't much to be done about it and that it was something to be expected and accepted due to the age of the thing. Was I just unlucky, or are for ex. reeds that no longer keep in tune no matter what you do things that affect most instruments that have reached a certain age? I expect most of the restored concertinas sold at for ex. Barleycorn to be quality instruments, but what are the limits of restoration?

 

Also, since I'm based in Finland, if I were to decide on a vintage concertina does anyone have advice as to what would be the best way for me to acquire one? All the reputable restorers that sell duets seem to be based outside the EU, and though I fully understand I'm not going to get a good concertina for cheap, I'd rather not add exorbitant import fees to an already expensive purchase... Maybe I should post a wanted ad on this forum?

Edited May 13, 2024 by Bouleaux

[Bouleaux]

Sorry, I was supposed to post this in the general discussion, but seem to have accidentally posted it to the marketplace! Is there any way of moving the post?

[Wolf Molkentin]

3 hours ago, Bouleaux said:

Sorry, I was supposed to post this in the general discussion, but seem to have accidentally posted it to the marketplace! Is there any way of moving the post?

 

@Ken_Coles or @Paul Schwartz will move the thread for you (only admins can do this trick 😅)

 

Welcome to these forums and community, and as to your inquiry: I would advise you to stick to your idea of getting a vintage concertina. They are indeed reliable beasts once restauration work ((if necessary) is done (which would be the case if you'd buy from Barleycorn, Andrew Norman, David Robertson or any other of the well-respected dealers), and the feel and sound is so much nicer...!

 

Duets are still being sold for considerably lesser amounts of money in comparison with Anglos or English concertinas. Albeit I'm not mainly a Duet player I would encourage you to go for a Crane, as the layout has a certain "logic" which will facilitate the learning process.

 

However, the supply of Mccanns seems to be better these days...

 

Best wishes for your concertina journey, enjoy it and have fun (I bet you will)!

 

🐺  

 

 

Edited May 13, 2024 by Wolf Molkentin
another admin tag added

[Leah Velleman]

On the reed question, no, I don't think bad reeds are inevitable. A vintage instrument that's been kept in reasonable conditions and not messed with too much might need some tuning, but should at least still be tunable. 

[alex_holden]

As a maker of new high-end duets... I generally recommend starting out with a good, recently serviced, vintage instrument from a reputable dealer. Unless you want to play the Hayden system, because there aren't any vintage ones of those. Once you get one, learn to play it for a few weeks/months before you decide on your next step: stick with it, try another instrument with a different keyboard system, search for a better vintage one, jump on the waiting list for a new custom build, maybe even give up on squeezeboxes and buy a ukulele... With a good vintage concertina you should be able to sell it and get most of your money back (some sellers may even buy it back from you for the same amount, but check their terms and conditions first).

 

As to buying used instruments, you are right that there can be drawbacks. Not all of them were built well in the first place: an instrument that was made with poor quality reeds 130 years ago will still have poor quality reeds today. Some parts wear out, particularly bellows, valves, hand straps, pads, and sometimes action levers. They can all be replaced, though beware poor quality bellows that look nice but are very stiff to play. Woodwork moves when exposed to humidity changes, and over time this can result in structural cracks, warping, and broken glue joints - this can be difficult and time consuming to repair. Reeds that were good when they were new can still be ruined by rust and/or excessive tuning - they can be replaced by a competent maker if it's only a few reeds, but it probably isn't worth the expense if most of them are ruined.

 

Ideally try before you buy, or if you can't do that then at least buy from somebody with a good reputation and a "satisfaction guaranteed" returns policy.

[Richard Mellish]

Just on the matter of import tax; most goods imported into the UK are subject to 20% VAT but the VAT rate for antiques (over 100 years old) is only 5%. I don't know whether there is a similar difference in EU countries.

[Wolf Molkentin]

10 minutes ago, Richard Mellish said:

Just on the matter of import tax; most goods imported into the UK are subject to 20% VAT but the VAT rate for antiques (over 100 years old) is only 5%. I don't know whether there is a similar difference in EU countries.

I applied for that in Germany but it didn’t work out In the end.

[Jesse Smith]

I love playing my antique anglo concertina (c. 1892). You get the true concertina reed sound and most likely the reeds have been well played in (they do tend to improve in tone with use, though I'm not 100% clear on the mechanism). For those of us who are romantics or superstitious about old instruments, there's something inspiring about knowing the instrument has had decades of tunes played through it. The downside is that an antique instrument is prone to be a bit high-maintenance. And concertinas in particular are very complex instruments with LOTS of small moving parts that can go a bit wrong. Levers can stick, pads can fall off or get twisted askew, reed shoes can loosen from their seats, etc. Old bellows and reed pans probably have some low-level degree of leakiness that doesn't really justify hunting down each little leak.

 

I don't know how the concertina fettler landscape is in Finland, but if it's anything like the United States you will want/need to become comfortable poking around and making minor repairs on your own.

[Bouleaux]

Thank you everyone for the replies! I've thought it through, and decided I'm going to start looking for an antique instrument.

 

On 5/14/2024 at 11:48 AM, Wolf Molkentin said:

I applied for that in Germany but it didn’t work out In the end.

 

What was the problem you had? In Finland antiques do also seem to only have a 10% VAT rate, which would really make it a lot easier for me to buy from the UK. Otherwise we're talking 27,7% all in all VAT+customs duty...

[Mike Franch]

5 hours ago, Bouleaux said:

Thank you everyone for the replies! I've thought it through, and decided I'm going to start looking for an antique instrument.

I think you will not regret the choice. As long as it is in good shape when you buy it, you shouldn't have to do anything major. Over the years, there might be lots of little things to tinker with, such as a reed making a strange sound because it's sucked up a bit of lint (which could happen with a new instrument). These you can easily fix. Mostly, you just need a good, appropriately sized screw driver to take off the ends without marring the wood. They're mechanical, so you can see what is out of alignment, what is loose, etc. Of course, some occasional frustration comes along as well.

I'd suggest getting David Elliott's Concertina Maintenance Manual (I think the 2nd edition is the latest). You can buy a new copy inexpensively; beware some resellers who ask outrageous prices for used copies.

 

Have fun!

 

Mike (my main squeeze is a 1915 Wheatstone Model 21)

[Wolf Molkentin]

14 hours ago, Bouleaux said:

What was the problem you had? In Finland antiques do also seem to only have a 10% VAT rate, which would really make it a lot easier for me to buy from the UK. Otherwise we're talking 27,7% all in all VAT+customs duty...

I don’t remember exactly - it was a very complicated process, beginning with the application form, and in the end they shifted it from one category to another with the outcome of granting me a certain discount re the customs duty but what they didn’t tell me was that I had nevertheless to pay the full import VAT. Unfortunately that was the major (and still quite hurting) part of it all by far…

 

But that’s Germany, you might very well be luckier in your country - however I suggest you could take the worst into account and still find a vintage Duet instrument at an acceptable price. Perhaps you‘ll experience a pleasant surprise, all the better then. Make sure that you‘ll be able to substantiate the year of production (in Germany it would have to be at least one hundred years ago).

 

And I congratulate you on your decision - may you find your instrument soon and enjoy the learning process!

 

All the best - 🐺
 

Edited May 18, 2024 by Wolf Molkentin

[Roger Hare]

4 hours ago, Mike Franch said:

...beware some resellers who ask outrageous prices for used copies...

Slight thread drift here, but this is one of my perennial hobby horses.

 

I have seen examples of (non-music related) 2nd hand books being offered for over £200 when the book was still available from the original publisher for the original cover price - approx. £20. As Mike Franch says, beware!