Beggining On The Ec

[Mutiny]

Over the last month or so I've been teaching myself to play a english style concertina that belonged to my dad. I'm not sure what make it is. the only info on it says made in itally...

Anyways I play mostly irish tunes. I've played guitar mandolin and bouzouki for awhile now and a bit of whistle so learning the ec has come pretty easily.

I've managed to pick up a handfull of tunes and play (some of them) at a reasonable speed. I've recently been adding drones and such in.

I dont really know anything about technique or have any learning material so I'm wondering if anyone could give me some help on articulating notes (repeated ones, triplets) bellows movement, fingering etc...

One particular problem I've had is fingering on arpegios, especially E > B, A > E D > A type stuff where you have to hop your finger up one button at high speed.

Just some tips or advice would be great.

thanks,

-Ben

Edited August 29, 2005 by Mutiny

[JimLucas]

One particular problem I've had is fingering on arpegios, especially E > B, A > E D > A type stuff where you have to hop your finger up one button at high speed.

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Just a quick reply on this one point: Try not "hopping" a finger, but use a separate finger, instead. E.g., on the left-hand E-B combination, use your ring finger on the E and middle finger on the B. And your index finger will still be free for the G, D, or middle C, if you need them. Same for the left-hand A-E or right-hand F-C and C-G. For the right-hand G-D, D-A, A-E, or left-hand C-G and G-D, etc. use the index and middle fingers, with the ring finger free for other buttons. In that combination I find that I sometimes use the index finger on the lower of the two notes and sometimes the middle finger, depending on where the fingers have to go before and afterward.

 

If you play guitar and mandolin, I'm sure you've done something similar on them... i.e., two different fingers on the same fret at the same time for different strings.

[Mutiny]

One particular problem I've had is fingering on arpegios, especially E > B, A > E D > A type stuff where you have to hop your finger up one button at high speed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just a quick reply on this one point: Try not "hopping" a finger, but use a separate finger, instead. E.g., on the left-hand E-B combination, use your ring finger on the E and middle finger on the B. And your index finger will still be free for the G, D, or middle C, if you need them. Same for the left-hand A-E or right-hand F-C and C-G. For the right-hand G-D, D-A, A-E, or left-hand C-G and G-D, etc. use the index and middle fingers, with the ring finger free for other buttons. In that combination I find that I sometimes use the index finger on the lower of the two notes and sometimes the middle finger, depending on where the fingers have to go before and afterward.

 

If you play guitar and mandolin, I'm sure you've done something similar on them... i.e., two different fingers on the same fret at the same time for different strings.

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Thanks for the help jim.

Anyone else wanna pitch in?

How do I articulate notes? Is it all in bellows pressure? or maybe tapping the buttons quickly? or some kind of cut/roll like the pipes?

Cheers.

[JimLucas]

How do I articulate notes? Is it all in bellows pressure?

Not all. That's mainly an advanced technique. Listen to some of Danny Chapman's cuts on the Recorded Tune Links page.

 

or maybe tapping the buttons quickly?

That's the usual way. Alistair Anderson used to say (probably still does) that the important thing was learning to pull the finger away, not just press it down. If you're talking about repetitions of a single note, it's good to develop the ability to not use the same finger repeatedly. I often alternate two fingers. Some folks have talked about using 3 fingers in rotation on the same button, a technique which is something more commonly used on accordions.

 

or some kind of cut/roll like the pipes?

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From my own experience and posts on C.net, I get the impression that I'm one of the few people to do this on English, and I use it sparingly. There's a little in my "Laughing Banshee" cut on the Tune Links page.

[Mutiny]

Alright. that seems to make sense. its gonna take a bit for my fingers to get used to sharing that small a space I'm used to big old fret boards on a bouzouki....

[Jeff Stallard]

Try to build a habit of using the ring finger for the fourth row. For instance, when playing an F# or Bb, avoid the urge to just shift your middle finger over one row. I did that for months, and discovered that it really gets me in a pickle -- a sticky wicket if you will -- often. At first I figured it was just because I was inexperienced, but now that I'm using my ring finger on the 4th row, a lot of problems I had previously have gone away. However, I am having a tough time training my ring finger, so right now it's just one problem replacing another, but in a few weeks, I should be fine.

 

Learn from my mistake and get that ring finger involved.

[JimLucas]

Try to build a habit of using the ring finger for the fourth row.

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Jeff, are you saying that when you started, you used only two finger of each hand? I thought that most folks just naturally started out using 3 fingers, and that those advising the use of more fingers were advocating a 4-finger approach. So now I'm wondering... how many other EC players started out using only 2 fingers ( or even just one?) per hand? And how many still do?

[Mark Evans]

[how many other EC players started out using only 2 fingers ( or even just one?) per hand?  And how many still do?

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I must confess to only using two fingers on my left hand. Never thought much about it until recently and am now trying to force my idle index finger to get involved because well, it's startin' ta' bug me.

 

On new tunes I'm having a limited success particularly if it is not in a traditional celtic music key. Forget trying to change long learned tunes. The hand tells me ta' shove off an' stop muckin' about with what works just fine.

 

Ignorance is in this case bliss .

Edited September 1, 2005 by Mark Evans

[John Wild]

quote: JimLucas,Sep 1 2005, 03:55 PM

I thought that most folks just naturally started out using 3 fingers, and that those advising the use of more fingers were advocating a 4-finger approach. So now I'm wondering... how many other EC players started out using only 2 fingers ( or even just one?) per hand? And how many still do?

 

 

 

I started as a two-finger player. As described in an earlier reply, I progressed by starting to use the 3rd finger for the semitones on the 4th row. I still do not claim expert status in use of 3 fingers, but I have made a gradual progression over the years.

 

One factor which was a clear influence was learning a duet concertina, where the recommendation is to use all 4 fingers. In playing the duet my little finger is still a bit limited, but my 3rd finger is much more flexible than before when going back to the English.

 

- John Wild

edited for typing error

Edited September 1, 2005 by John Wild

[Jeff Stallard]

My right (dominant) hand had no problem using three fingers, but my left hand protested, and I gave in. Now it's a struggle to get that left-hand third finger into the action.

[Dan Madden]

I have been working on the English Concertina for several years, without a teacher and so on my own. I also play a few other instruments. I have found the various ideas that come out of this forum very helpful, but for me at least, not always practical. I am sure that with a proper teacher, my technique, and thus my playing would be better. Since the original poster seems to be learning the way I did, I thought my history might be useful.

 

From the beginning, using three fingers came quite naturally. But that is because I stuck with the keys of C and G for my first few tunes, so basically 3=2 for most of this stage. I devote one finger to each column in C and brought in the third for one note in G. As I branched out to the "black keys" the third finger seemed to be in the right place a lot of the time. When it wasn't, I just gave up on the tune. I figure that there are plenty of great things to play, so why not concentrate on the ones that come easily. As I got better, more tunes fit this category including some that had been previously abandoned.

 

Over time I expanded the keys I could play. Tunes with accidental notes started becoming possible, and they are always fun. My technique evolved, not to where a teacher would have pushed it, but to a point where I am definitely more versatile. Right now, here is where I find myself.

 

1. The same note twice: I am getting better at using one finger and taking it on and off. It is probably better to use two fingers, but this is still only in my future. For speed or for a particular tune, I will still use the bellows if that comes easier.

 

2. Two successive notes in the same column: I stick with the finger devoted to that column. My biggest problem is getting one hand or the other on the wrong home keys. Any time I try to pick up speed by breaking the column rule, I cannot get back to home dependably, so I for now at least, I don't try.

 

3. Bellows control: I ignored this at the very beginning, but as my button work became more confident, I have learned how to use the bellows for phrasing and better sound. Here is one place where a teacher would definitely help a lot.

 

4. I have resigned myself to waltzes and slower reels when playing solo for someone else. Well, not entirely, and as I improve this is changing. Again I try to force myself to play what comes easily, and I let practice and experience determine my true repertoire, not just the things I have tried to learn.

 

5. Expanding octaves: In the beginning, I did what I could within an 8 note range. Not always c-C, but no more than an octave. This helped a lot with my problem of losing my home position. I still venture into newer keys with the same caution, but again there is nothing like practice to expand your horizons. Very quickly my range expanded, and I probably have a tune or two outside C with a two octave range. In a few of the things I know best, I can change a whole octave on the fly. There are some tunes I play, only with others, where I have ignored the actual tune and replaced phrases with 5-ths or octaves to restrict the range. This is for sessions or with close friends so as not to upset the purists. An unexpected harmony may get me the occasional look, but not as glaring a look as when I play a phrase with my right hand one column or one row off.

 

Anyway, my playing is coming along fine by my standards. Still I really am a pure amateur, and I play entirely for my own amusement. The above works for me.

 

Dan Madden

[Mutiny]

So I just checked exactly what fingers I'm using and it turns out that I'm using 3 fingers on the right hand a 2 on the left. guess its time to whip that ring fnger into shape

[BruceB]

Hi Everyone,

 

I started with the Richard Carlin book for English Concertina. I used 3 fingers on each hand right from the start. I now sometimes use my pinky finger if it is needed, like in some of the tunes in Dancing With Ma Baby. I still use my index & middle fingers a lot more than my ring fingers.

 

I almost never use the same finger for two consecutive notes. If I'm jumping up or down a fifth (from one button to the one directly above or below it in the same column) I pretty much always use two different fingers. I find it easy to bring one over from a neighboring column. This is a basic, must have skill IMO.

 

For repeated notes (one button multiple times in a row) I almost always use two different fingers, though there are exceptions. I do whatever sounds better, which is almost always two fingers.

 

Like Jim, I sometimes use rolls. I do them like I did on flute & whistle. I also use two finger hammers on one button, like Simon Thoumire does. I almost always use my index & middle finger to do this. I often use both techniques in one tune. For short rolls (quarter notes) I usually either play the note, then the next note above it (on the other hand) and back again to the first note. This is super fast and easy. If that creates a fingering problem I'll play it on one hand, the note, then a third above it and back to the first note. This is easy too, but takes a bit more work to get it up to speed.

 

Sometimes, instead I'll play a two or three note chord instead of the above stuff, or I might just cut the note. All this is still a work in progress for me, but I currently use all of them.

 

bruce boysen

[BruceB]

BTW, for anyone who wants detailed explanations of ornamentation in Irish Trad check out "The Essential Guide to Irish Flute & Tin Whistle," by Grey Larsen. Yeah, a lot of it is specific to flute & whistle, but the book is amazing. Much of it can be applied to other instruments. It has by far the best explanation of rolls I've ever seen. Great stuff!

 

For anyone who wants to see just how subtle & complex Itrad can be, check out Section 8: Great Performances Transcribed. (Read Section 3 on ornamentation first unless you're an advanced player) I was amazed at how much subtle variation there is even within the playing of one master. There are endless ways to vary a roll and this book has really helped me to listen and hear a bit more than before. You'll never again look at an ornament as a static entity, played just one or a few ways..... or am I the only one who did that?

 

bruce boysen

[lildogturpy]

So I just checked exactly what fingers I'm using and it turns out that I'm using 3 fingers on the right hand a 2 on the left. guess its time to whip that ring fnger into shape 

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Last year at the NESI Ken Sweeny held a workshop in which he described his technique of using 4 fingers on his right hand and only two on his left. I guess that's three on each side on average

 

Here's a link to the photo

Ken Sweeny

[geoffwright]

Give it a rest!!

This is covered elsewhere, but after some 3 years, I have got out of using my little finger ...... to grip the concertina.

It is useful, even for part of the tune - if you have low notes to play, take the pinkie off the rest and tilt the concertina back 10 degrees. It is much easier to finger the lower notes.

I guess part of the stress people feel is in gripping the box between thumb and pinkie. If you can relieve some of this tension, even for part of the tune, it all helps.

[BruceB]

Geoff,

 

I'm with you on this one. I'll remove a pinky from it's rest sometimes, both to use it to push a button and sometimes to make it easier to get to low notes. Most of the time my pinkies are in their respective holders, but it really seems to work for me to take em out sometimes. This is just a part of an overall effort to keep my hands and fingers more relaxed as my natural tendency is to grab my 'tina with a death grip. I like to imagine my fingers as effortlessly floating up and down the keyboard. I'm not always as successful at this as I'd like as I'm a bit of a spaz.

 

bruce boysen, playing a superlight Albion helps too.

[chiton1]

Didn't look into concertina.net for a long time, was too busy playing my new Boyd Lachenal with two fingers!

I am quite happy with my two fingers technique (for the last 20 years or so) and have no desire to expand it. I use cuts and rolls often. Tried to use the three fingers technique used by box players to achieve the fast repeat of the same note. It was easy when I tried it on a box once but quite difficult / impossible (for me) on the EC (buttons are too small, my fingers too thick and the action of the button seems to differ as well), so I gave up trying.

Keep on playing! Hermann