Beginner Questions Regarding "Ergonomics" (Hayden)

[Stasia]

I've tried doing a search but apparently am not phrasing my question properly, so thanks in advance for any advice provided.

I have two Hayden style concertinas - an Elise and a Stagi/Concertine Italia. I chose the Hayden layout because it's what my piano-playing brain seemed to find familiar; I chose these specific instruments because they are what I can afford; started with the Elise to see if I could play, then got the Stagi when I "ran out of notes" for what I want to play.

I'm fine with understanding where the notes are, using my pinkie finger, accompanying myself with chords on the left hand (major; will work on minor soon.) I'm working through the "Tutor For The Elise" book and I find it very helpful in learning... counterpoint, for lack of a better word. The format helps my brain learn to use my hands independently. Beyond that, I'm working out folk songs "by ear," and working through my band's modern pop songs list (I play acoustic and electric guitar) for fun.

And it's great - it's coming along, and I love it.

But I have a couple of beginner questions regarding form/function.

I know that I should not rest the center of the bellows on a knee, to avoid wear.

What I don't know is which SIDE of the instrument I should have resting on a knee, and which side I should be moving. Is it better to have more stability on the LH side when playing "oom-pah-pah" chords, and move the RH melody side? What is best for control? Is there an accepted method, or is it personal preference? Does it depend on the song?

The other question I have is how tight the hand straps should be. Tight enough so there is not so much "play" so that one is not struggling or losing control on the pull... but not so much as to pinch one's hand or leave a mark? Like... how much is one relying on the back of one's hand for the pull, so that the fingers are able to move freely? And is there a "direction" one should be aiming for? Using gravity to assist?

Thanks very much for your advice.

Stasia in WI, USA

[Alex West]

Stasia

 

It really doesn't matter which side you rest the instrument on.  Whatever feels comfortable for you. 

 

Some really good players of both Anglo and English rest the bellows on their knee as they feel it gives them greater freedom of movement and accepting some wear - on the basis that bellows are relatively easy to replace albeit at a cost.  Some people put a cloth over their knee to minimise the abrasion and hence wear.  Personally, I don't subscribe to either of these views but that's just my preference

 

Hand straps should be a bit looser than you think.  If they're too tight, you won't be able to move your fingers freely enough to reach all the notes fluently (or at all).  A Hayden or duet player may have a different view, but as an anglo player, The heel of my hand, the non-playing finger(s) and the back of my hand for a 3-point support giving stability and a strong basis for pushing, pulling and control as necessary

 

I hope that helps

 

Alex West

[Leah Velleman]

It is very much personal preference.

 

My advice is, if there's a hand that's weaker and needs extra stability, then rest that end on your leg. Or if there's a hand that's much "busier" than the other, rest that end, and use the "less busy" hand to work the bellows.

 

I'm right-handed and I play Irish on the Anglo (which uses more left-hand buttons), so my left hand is weaker and busier, which made it a pretty easy choice: I rest the left end on my leg. But not all Irish players do that — not even all right-handed Irish players. Ultimately, you just have to figure out what works for you.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

What you're really asking is not which side to support, but which to immobilise. Duets are best played seated and fully supported, bandoneon style, with straps as loose, as you can manage to still controll the instrument properly. Take a look at Didie Sendra (https://www.youtube.com/@Soloduet0703), IMHO the best Hayden player out there. He started with only the right side supported, then experimented with center support and fan-like bellows articulation, but nowadays he supports both ends, with the preference of lifting the left side if the need arises (articulation, fully closing the bellows, etc...). Aidas Rusa (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb-C_sZFnsQ) also supports his box on both ends, with his right side being fully fixed.

 

I on the other hand (https://www.youtube.com/@desnou/videos), play with the left side fixed, as it makes oom-pahs easier, but rarely ever lift the right side, only for extreme extension or bellows effects like vibrato etc. When I do lift it, the direction of articulation (with the gravity or against the gravity) depends on the side of the keyboard the passage is played, that is, is it in flat keys or sharp keys or the center of the keyboard - whichever way is the most comfortable to play. When I played Elise I also experimented with the neck and shoulder strap (as seen in my two Elise videos). Currently I use a completely custom handling system, that has no strap at all.

 

With the Elise, you can experiment with the thumb strap, just set the straps loosely and put your thumb in the small loop. I found this to be a superior way to handle this instrument, as it allows for way easier use of pinky. You can also see this in my Elise videos. George from "George plays music" YT channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_4Bfk1ere4) [edit: the rest of this sentence somehow vanished...: "...also modified his handrests with thumb spacer/holder for easier control."

 

 

One last tip - remember, that your unused fingers can assist with the bellows movement and stability. Don't be affraid to put fingers down onto the endplate when necessary/convenient. You'll be able to use even looser strap with this kind of finger support.

 

Edited January 26, 2024 by Łukasz Martynowicz

[Illumamoth]

Since I see you have commented a potential bellows technique for this model I am going to try what you recommend. That written:

I am a novice at concertina. To me... the bellows on the Elise seem very stiff and the instrument "short of breath" ... with notes that don't want to play either at all or have a long lag.... That is what I experience with this model, which I have been trying to get used to for five months. I was thinking of selling it, but instead I think I will hold on to it and keep playing it a little daily as I have tried a few things and don't really want to give up on it just yet. BUT: I may be doing the bellows work completely wrong - the Concertina Connection website shows using the front of the concertina as a hinge point for the bellows. I will try this. (although I have seen other instruction that contradicts that technique)...That said:

What I did thinking it might help was to give the bellows a workout of sorts by holding the bellows valve open and pulling and pushing to the extent I could to hopefully get them more mobile, which seems to work. Yesterday I picked it up again and as a beginner I still had to break bellows work down to half a measure in and half a measure out, and even that was iffy. It seems the bellows is probably folded card? ...the bellows is a little easier to work from the exercise I gave them... and I did notice that the bass reeds settled down a little and are not overpowering the treble now... but the higher reeds on both hands don't play consistently (way too much lag or not at all) ... I don't know what CC's makers did to this instrument but sold as a beginner's concertina the difficulty in working it in the first place is off-putting.

If I can't get the reeds sounding I am thinking about opening it up and seeing what's going on. But not before I give all the buttons a good workout, which won't happen unless I can get used to it which hasn't happened yet! I was really disappointed that the maker wouldn't take it back either but I did leave it til after their return window closed so that's on me. I guess one solution would to be to take it apart and replace the bellows altogether with a longer set of easier to work bellows, adding at least one? But this would be a last resort.

 

 

Edited February 29, 2024 by Illumamoth

[Leah Velleman]

Unfortunately, beginner's concertinas are notorious for this sort of thing. It's hard to make an instrument that cheap and still have excellent quality control.

 

If you can't play for very long without changing bellows, that suggests that air is leaking in and out. It could be a leak in the bellows (those are at least easy to spot), but it could also be that half a dozen places inside the instrument are leaking tiny bits of air and the cumulative effect is big enough to be noticeable.

 

Instruments that are less airtight are also slower to respond. You need to build up a certain amount of air pressure before the reed sounds, and the less tight an instrument is, the slower it reaches that level of pressure. And even on an airtight instrument, good reeds respond faster than cheap ones, and individual reeds can be out of whack in ways that make them respond especially slowly.

 

(Also, slow response can end up feeling like stiff bellows. It's easy to mistake "there's a delay in hearing the note start" for "there's a delay in feeling the bellows move." Though you could also have both — just one more thing to think about as you're troubleshooting.)

 

These are all fixable to some extent. But when I asked around about my own Concertina Connection starter instrument, the response I got was "I'd charge more money to work on this than you should put into a cheap instrument. Save up for a better one." Your local repair folks might have a different opinion, or you might be able to do the work yourself.

Edited February 29, 2024 by Leah Velleman

[Illumamoth]

Thanks Leah. Unfortunately, Concertina Connection's advice is to keep playing till you get it broken in (which I find very odd as a recommendation - I guess it's too cheap (I don't think $465 is cheap frankly - but it is, when compared to even the "intermediate" models) to put that time in to making sure the instrument plays as it's supposed to. Annoyingly for a beginner who doesn't know anything about the instrument (I know more than I did when I got it but by the time it was too late for a refund, I realized it might be more than just me not playing it right. Doesn't seem fair. I wonder if I could return it on warranty issues like faulty bellows? Hmm. (sorry... had to vent, apparently so does the concertina). I think that your comment that it might be leaking SOMEWHERE is very plausible anyway. At this point I think I will take the screws out and look inside as I might find the machinery isn't lining up with the holes or the bellows release button is leaky... it can't hurt and might give me reason to send it back on warranty.
EDIT: CC got back to me with the suggestion that it isn't yet broken in and I should play each button with more bellows force 5 seconds each way for a month or so to do that. I guess it's worth a try before I resort to other measures, and William responded to my request for this quite quickly. We will see.

Edited February 29, 2024 by Illumamoth
Added info

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

Not sounding or late sounding notes probably have badly voiced reeds. That is they have the gap between the tongue and the frame either too big or too small. You can adjust it yourself - you will need a reed hook for push reeds, since reeds on Elise are waxed to permanently mounted reedblocks, but the process is relatively easy.
 

As to the bellows „workout” - instead of air button press all the buttons with your palms and work it out this way. Less resistance, less strain on your arms, so more and faster extensions possible. If there is significant spring back from the fully closed position, you can also try to press the bellows better, but this requires disassembly and some tinkering with woodworking clamps.

[Illumamoth]

My condo neighbors will love that 🙂 (to be honest though it might sound better than my practice!)