Two English Concertina questions

[Ubizmo]

As I mentioned in another thread, I ordered a used Jackie concertina, which won't arrive for a week. I really just want to see what it's like to play one, how it feels in comparison to the Anglo I have, and so on. The Jackie, of course, is a 30 button instrument that differs from a 48 (or higher) number of buttons by having (a) less range, and (b) no enharmonics, and therefore no redundancy, I assume.

 

So my first question is this: Given the lack of multiple fingerings for a single pitch, the chances of having to move from button to button with the same finger (is there a term for this?) must be higher than would be the case on the Anglo, where there's quite a bit of redundancy, due to the overlapping scales. But possibly the use of the fingers is a bit more flexible, due to the different layout, which brings me to my next question....

 

English concertinas have the thumb strap instead of the hand strap that's seen on Anglo and Duet concertinas. They also have the pinky rest, but I gather not all players use it consistently. My question is, why do they have a thumb strap instead of a hand strap? I get that they are unisonoric, so the player doesn't have to do as much reversal of direction with the bellows. But the Duet is unisonoric too, so there must be more to it than that. Is the purpose to allow more mobility of the hand position over the buttons, to avoid the situation described in my first question?

[Stephen Chambers]

1 hour ago, Ubizmo said:

English concertinas have the thumb strap instead of the hand strap that's seen on Anglo and Duet concertinas. They also have the pinky rest, but I gather not all players use it consistently. My question is, why do they have a thumb strap instead of a hand strap? I get that they are unisonoric, so the player doesn't have to do as much reversal of direction with the bellows. But the Duet is unisonoric too, so there must be more to it than that. Is the purpose to allow more mobility of the hand position over the buttons, to avoid the situation described in my first question?

 

The simple answer is that the English concertina is the oldest type to be made and the earliest models (like the first concertina, my avatar) borrowed numerous elements from Cyrill Demian, the inventor's, 1829 accordions - and they were held by a thumb strap.

 

The greatest early virtuoso, Giulio Regondi, liked to be able to use all-four fingers to play, and used a neck strap to help support the instrument.

[Ubizmo]

So you're saying it's the weight of tradition more than any specific requirement of English concertina. That's surprising, for some reason. I wonder if many EC players have tried a hand strap anyway. I can see why the thumb strap might not work well on the Anglo. 

Maybe I'll have a better idea when I've played one. 

[David Barnert]

2 hours ago, Ubizmo said:

I wonder if many EC players have tried a hand strap anyway.

 

Some larger ECs have a hand strap in addition to the thumb strap and pinkie rest.

 

Edited to add: Now that I think about it, they’re more likely wrist straps than hand straps.

Edited November 21, 2023 by David Barnert

[Geoff Wooff]

Whilst  the  historic  answer  to  your  question  has  been  covered  by  Stephen Chambers  , the  'why'   that most  of  us  still use  the  thumb straps  is  covered  by  your  other point.  When  a  button  needs  the  use  of  a finger  that  has  just  been  engaged  elsewhere  then  some  twisting  of  the  hand  might  be  employed to  gain  a position  where  a  different  finger  can  be  utilised.  The  pivoting  of  the  hand  around  the  thumb  strap  allows  fingers  to  be  positioned  more  easily  to  reach  buttons  further  forward  or  backward.....  The    small compass  of  the   Jackie  keyboard  is  not  really  going  to  give  you  the  full  effect  or  need  to  shift  positions.

I'll agree  that  the  thumb straps are  hardly  ideal  and  some  here  have  championed the  use of  alternative    holding  methods  whilst  others, like myself,   hang on  to  the original  system.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Geoff Wooff

[Little John]

I've played English with thumb straps and both Crane duet and Anglo with hand straps. One advantage of the thumb straps is that when playing standing up, supporting the instrument entirely with the hands, thumb straps give you more stability than hand straps.

 

But to answer your first question:

 

9 hours ago, Ubizmo said:

Given the lack of multiple fingerings for a single pitch, the chances of having to move from button to button with the same finger (is there a term for this?) must be higher than would be the case on the Anglo, ...

 

which follows on from the observation:

 

9 hours ago, Ubizmo said:

The Jackie, of course, is a 30 button instrument that differs from a 48 (or higher) number of buttons by having ... no enharmonics, and therefore no redundancy

 

It's true that a full 48 button instrument has both D# and Eb (and G# and Ab), but these are not really 'alternatives'. Any basic scale is played with notes alternating between the hands. So playing in E major you would play the D#, playing in Eb major you would use the Eb button. In theory you could play the D# in an Eb tune and the Eb in an E tune, but you would break the alternating hand pattern of the scale and it would become more awkward. In fact in the 19th century D# and Eb were tuned differently (1/4 comma mean tone tuning was common if not universal) so playing an Eb where it should be a D# (and vice versa) would sound pretty bad too.

 

[Geoff Wooff]

One  way  to  practice moving  fingers  from  button to  button  is  to  try  playing  tunes  using  only  one  finger  on  each  hand......

[4to5to6]

33 minutes ago, Geoff Wooff said:

One  way  to  practice moving  fingers  from  button to  button  is  to  try  playing  tunes  using  only  one  finger  on  each  hand......

Good one Geoff!  I’ll try this.

 

I’m a big fan of one finger per column for single note playing.  4 fingers, 4 columns…. You loose the pinky support but it makes the instrument much more intuitive.  I think this was a Richard Blagrove method from the mid 1800s.

With multiple note, harmony playing, it’s all over the place.

 

Opposite to the original question of moving one finger to multiple buttons… here’s Simon Thoumire moving multiple fingers to one button… he has an awesome two finger roll technique: 

 

 

.

Edited November 21, 2023 by 4to5to6

[David Barnert]

2 hours ago, 4to5to6 said:

Opposite to the original question of moving one finger to multiple buttons… here’s Simon Thoumire moving multiple fingers to one button… he has an awesome two finger roll technique: 

 

Warning to @Ubizmo: The way Simon holds the EC is unique. Fascinating and effective, but unique. You may want to give it a try, but certainly don’t feel that you have to hold it that way. Word is that he taught himself to play without knowing that everyone else held it differently.

[wunks]

I have a Wheatstone EC with thumb straps and wrist straps and has the complete RH end rotated one notch clockwise.  I don't play EC but it feels much more ergonomic compared to the normal setup.  Malcome Clapp has commented that he has encountered this variation and may have done some conversions ( If I recall a post from a couple years ago ).

[tony]

In my experience:

 

because of the orientation of the keys, a hand strap on a EC is likely to limit your reach to the higher keys, particularly if you have any mobility problems (in my case arteritis).

 

If you do have a mobility problem with you fingers and you play an instrument with a hand strap you might find an EC (without a hand strap) a solution.

 

I have a Jackie and I’m getting on with fine so far, as long as I don’t attempt to support the instrument with my thumbs.

 

I traded a very nice EC some years ago in favour of my McCann because I found the duet key layout more intuitive than the EC.

Edited November 21, 2023 by tony

[Mike Acott]

A large factor in the thumb strap debate is that the keyboard is at right angles to duet and anglo boxes thus allowing a larger range of notes to be easily accessed while playing.

Mike 

[Ubizmo]

2 hours ago, Mike Acott said:

A large factor in the thumb strap debate is that the keyboard is at right angles to duet and anglo boxes thus allowing a larger range of notes to be easily accessed while playing.

Mike 

I had no idea there was even a debate about this. But I can now see how there might well be one.

 

Again, never even having held an EC, I have very little idea what it feels like to try to play one. I do think I see, however, how it might sometimes be necessary to pivot the hands a bit. For example, to play from D to A, the A button is directly over the D button. If you need to play that fifth at speed, or legato, then you don't want to have to use the right index finger for both, so you'd need to change the angle of the hand to do it. Possibly the thumb strap gives you more degrees of freedom to do that. I think some similar situations can arise on the Anglo, in my limited experience, but mostly the fingers have to be able to reach to the outer keys and the accidental row. I don't think changing the orientation of the hand is often necessary on the Anglo, except perhaps for certain chords. I haven't done much with chords yet.

 

[fred v]

To add to your comment about playing a not a 5th above I use my index finger on the D note and my2nd finger above it to hit the A note. Same thing on the left hand with the E and B buttons. This comes up very often with ITM and is a good trick to learn. I use wrist straps and don't change my hand position. I've gotten used to moving my fingers to wherever they are needed. Takes time to get used to it all.

[Ubizmo]

57 minutes ago, fred v said:

To add to your comment about playing a not a 5th above I use my index finger on the D note and my2nd finger above it to hit the A note. Same thing on the left hand with the E and B buttons. This comes up very often with ITM and is a good trick to learn. I use wrist straps and don't change my hand position. I've gotten used to moving my fingers to wherever they are needed. Takes time to get used to it all.

Yes, it does come up pretty often in ITM. Last night, I tried to fumble through "Harvest Home" on the EC and it was quite a challenge.

[d.elliott]

Mike Acott has alluded to the fact that the English system runs along the length of the fingers, in nice neat rows, and the Anglo runs around the palm in curves, obviously he is correct. This means that the English system player has to move his hands a little,  up an down the keyboard, its not call a finger slide for nothing and thumb straps should be sufficiently loose to permit movement along the keyboard whilst keeping the fingers parallel to the keyboard. All whilst keeping a positive sense of where the fingers are relative to row. This sense of location for an Anglo comes from the thumb hooking around the strap, ditto  for Duets, Wrist straps alone don't have that thumb location and positional reference.

[Paul_Hardy]

As someone who has played English concertina for 30 years, I find the thumbstraps work well. Over the years, and in contrast to some other players, I've tended towards tighter rather than looser thumbstraps. My thumb goes in only as far as the start of the knuckle joint, rather than letting the knuckle go into the hole. this give me a precise location for one point on each hand. I then start off with the little finger slid to the end of the pinky rest, which gives me a second precise location. My first and second fingers are then automatically on my home position buttons (G & B on left, A & C on right). Once I start playing, my right pinky will slide a bit back along the rest, and my third finger on RH homes in on F#.

 

Having only the first section of thumb in the thumbstraps does give me a further degree of freedom of movement by flexing the thumb knuckle joint. On a standard 48 button English, I can comfortably reach with my index finger the lowest button (G) and the highest (c'') without moving the ends of my thumbs or pinkies. On the odd occasion when my thumb has gone further in, I've found hand movement more restricted.

 

It took me 25 years to get away from using one finger on each row, but I now both alternate fingers on repeated notes, and sometimes use an alternative finger on notes a fifth apart, although other times I work the short pause of using the same finger into my style - I definitely have a more staccato  rather than legato style.

 

Incidentally, I've had intermittent problems with arthritis for 35 years in a shoulder, both elbows, and neck, but never in thumbs or fingers, or at all while playing concertina, so think my hand positioning on EC is well relaxed and efficient.

[John Wild]

44 minutes ago, Paul_Hardy said:

 Over the years, and in contrast to some other players, I've tended towards tighter rather than looser thumbstraps. My thumb goes in only as far as the start of the knuckle joint, rather than letting the knuckle go into the hole.

 

That is exactly what I was recommended to do by Dave Townsend (and others) many years ago, and I think it has worked well for me.

I keep it firm, but not so tight that I get pins and needles.

If your thumb is much looser in its strap, there is more stress placed on the thumb joint as you try to keep it in place.

Until the beginning of this year I had no problem with arthritis. It is now developing down the length of my left thumb into the edge of the palm.

After 45+ years of playing, it is my belief that this development is probably age related, and not associated with my playing.