New makers… a suggestion quick release

[seanc]

This is more of a rant and observation. To all those making new concertinas. 
 

if there is a way that would be cost effective. I would suggest/ ask/ beg. That somehow some sort of quick release, maybe latch,   Boots with cotter pin, or even hex head nuts that stops and can not be over tightened. 
 

just something that is easy and not intimidating for a potential player to open up and fiddle and also a way to provide consistent and idiot proof to seal back up. 

 

 

[wunks]

I've thought about this a lot:  hinges,clasps, velcro etc. but the only improvement that I think works is a hex ( Allan ) or star drive end bolt and of course if you want to access the reed pan you leave the bolts in the end plate/action board for easy reassembly.  Without looking it up, some makers are doing this .

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

There's a Laurel and Hardy film where Laurel thinks he can play ( Anglo  20 key concertina)..

But it is hinged and so opens ( to contain a bomb!)..

But I thought many time that it should be possible by now to hinge concertina parts so that they can be opened when required for maintenance likewise, and then locked up afterwards again! ( That film was incidentally called the Big Noise)!

[Frank Edgley]

A well-made concertina should not need to be opened very frequently. I have one of my Bb/F concertinas which has only been opened once or twice for a touch up tuning.. It is well over ten years old. Unless dust gets into a reed and stops it from sounding there should be little reason to open it.

[Wally Carroll]

Some of this comes down to a choice between aesthetics and convenience. However, not sure that hex head bolts are any more efficient than regular flat head bolts if you use the right technique, but in my opinion, flat head endbolts are much nicer in a visual sense. I’d love to have no endbolts and instead have a twist on end like a peanut butter jar but I’m not sure how I’d get the right amount of pressure with the ends still aligned to the bellows and also not drag the gasket off of the walls.  To paraphrase Frank, most people probably don’t have to open their instruments all that often.  But to those who are unwilling to ever do so, and especially to those who feel put out by even the suggestion, I would recommend not getting a concertina.  Perhaps a whistle or a wood block would be more appropriate 😀. Seriously though, concertinas have very fine tolerances (less than .001”) and traditional reeded instruments have reeds that are dovetailed into the wood and held in place by friction.  Instruments can get jarred, woods can swell and contract with humidity changes, and cat hairs can find their way into the instrument. Eventually, most owners will have to open their instruments at some point. But the good news is that it’s really not that hard and the time that you do spend opening your instrument and shimming a few notes back into place will likely be far less time than you would spend tuning and changing strings on another class of instruments over a similar period of time.  

[Mikefule]

In most cases, taking the end off means undoing 6 screws with a precision screwdriver. It takes no more than reasonable care.

 

I play more or less daily, and probably open one of my instruments less than once every couple of years.

 

I can see no demand for a hinge and clip system with more to go wrong.

[Richard Mellish]

I won't say I need to take an end off frequently, but it isn't rare either that a reed stops sounding or sounds odd for one reason or another (or, as I mentioned recently in another thread, that I need to replace a broken button). I find undoing and re-doing six or more screws more than somewhat tedious, especially having to take care that the screwdrive doesn't slip. (I do have one with a plastic tube that fits over the screw head, but it's not all that convenient to use.) I would have mixed feelings about hex-head of allen screws on a vintage instrument but I see no objection at all to having them on a new one. They would be a much smaller concession to modern technology than some techniques that some makers are now using.

 

I'm not convinced by the OP's idea of something that can't be overtightened. You could have screws hitting the ends of their holes, but tolerancing would be critical and wouldn't allow for compression of the chamois over time. Hand-tightening to just enough seems better. Would a torque wrench be best? Dentists use small ones attaching restorations to implants.

 

As for some sort of quick-release arrangement, the way that a melodion end is held on by a few pins seems crude, but it works.

[Clive Thorne]

Some sort of circular arrangement with cams on it. Fit the end, rotate the circular bit through a slot in the side (or a screw head), and six cams apply the pressure?

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

There is a way to do something like this relatively easily on 3d printed concertinas, namely using wedges and slots, but it comes at a hefty price of increased size. Same goes with accordion style pins - accordion bellows walls are way thicker than concertina bellows walls. Screws are the most elegant and space efficient solution. However, I really don’t understand why modern makers stick to straight slot screws. Allen heads are way more convenient to use, way more durable and, at least to my eye, look way nicer than other head types except for torx. The only reason I can see to stick with straight slot is if screws have to made from brass for aesthetic reasons. Other than that, it is one of those „traditional ways” I can perfectly live without in times of hybrids, cnc machined reedpans and entire 3d printed boxes.

[wunks]

I'm interested in this because I have a situation where easy access would be desirable.  My Wheatstone Jeffries duet now goes down to the cello low F while lacking the G#,F#,E,Eb,D, C# and C.  I'd like to be able to make substitutions at this low end of the range to facilitate playing some classical arrangements and dance accompaniments.  

[wunks]

12 minutes ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

There is a way to do something like this relatively easily on 3d printed concertinas, namely using wedges and slots, but it comes at a hefty price of increased size. Same goes with accordion style pins - accordion bellows walls are way thicker than concertina bellows walls. Screws are the most elegant and space efficient solution. However, I really don’t understand why modern makers stick to straight slot screws. Allen heads are way more convenient to use, way more durable and, at least to my eye, look way nicer than other head types except for torx. The only reason I can see to stick with straight slot is if screws have to made from brass for aesthetic reasons. Other than that, it is one of those „traditional ways” I can perfectly live without in times of hybrids, cnc machined reedpans and entire 3d printed boxes.

Although I wouldn't make any drastic non-reversible changes, I would consider having a set of such end bolts made.

[John Wild]

37 minutes ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

 Allen heads are way more convenient to use, way more durable and, at least to my eye, look way nicer than other head types except for torx.

Edward  Jay is using allen keys on his 3-d printed instruments.

[alex_holden]

45 minutes ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

However, I really don’t understand why modern makers stick to straight slot screws. Allen heads are way more convenient to use, way more durable and, at least to my eye, look way nicer than other head types except for torx. The only reason I can see to stick with straight slot is if screws have to made from brass for aesthetic reasons.

 

Because looks are subjective. I can easily make an instrument with mass-produced stainless steel Allen-head screws (and will do so when a client asks me to); they just look unsightly IMHO. Torx is even uglier to my eye. I also disagree with "more durable". Yes, you can damage a slotted head by using the wrong size of screwdriver in it, but you can also round out an Allen screw with a badly fitting key.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

6 minutes ago, John Wild said:

Edward  Jay is using allen keys on his 3-d printed instruments.

Yes, I know. Alex Holden and Flying Duck Concertinas also made some boxes with Allen screws. 
 

48 minutes ago, wunks said:

I'm interested in this because I have a situation where easy access would be desirable.  My Wheatstone Jeffries duet now goes down to the cello low F while lacking the G#,F#,E,Eb,D, C# and C.  I'd like to be able to make substitutions at this low end of the range to facilitate playing some classical arrangements and dance accompaniments.  

 

If I read it right and those notes are in reversed, descensing order, then you’ll be dissappointed by such substitutions in terms of response, pitch stability and timbre, more and more as you go further down from F. Lowest of those may even not speak at all. It’s because you need increasingly larger chambers as you go further down from C3.

[Clive Thorne]

2 hours ago, alex_holden said:

 

Because looks are subjective. I can easily make an instrument with mass-produced stainless steel Allen-head screws (and will do so when a client asks me to); they just look unsightly IMHO. Torx is even uglier to my eye. I also disagree with "more durable". Yes, you can damage a slotted head by using the wrong size of screwdriver in it, but you can also round out an Allen screw with a badly fitting key.

A button head Allen screw might look better than the convention head, but whetehr you can get them in M2.5/M3 at a suitable length I don't know.

 

Addendum: someone in China claims to supply M2.5 button head up to 40mm: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/323005841871

Edited February 21, 2023 by Clive Thorne

[wunks]

2 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

Yes, I know. Alex Holden and Flying Duck Concertinas also made some boxes with Allen screws. 
 

 

If I read it right and those notes are in reversed, descensing order, then you’ll be dissappointed by such substitutions in terms of response, pitch stability and timbre, more and more as you go further down from F. Lowest of those may even not speak at all. It’s because you need increasingly larger chambers as you go further down from C3.

A fair observation but we're getting off topic I'm afraid.  I will say I've had excellent results with bisonorics. 

[alex_holden]

15 hours ago, Clive Thorne said:

A button head Allen screw might look better than the convention head, but whetehr you can get them in M2.5/M3 at a suitable length I don't know.

 

I've used the M3 version on two instruments. ISTR I didn't use M2.5 because I couldn't find any long enough at the time. They look a bit nicer if you smooth out the profile of the head, reduce the head diameter a tiny bit, and give them a mirror polish. Here they are on No. 9, next to No. 10 with my traditional hand made brass screws. Whichever sort of head you use I recommend supplying the instrument with a good quality screwdriver that fits well.

 

On the one I'm building at the moment, the client has asked for traditional slotted screws but in stainless steel.

[Clive Thorne]

4 hours ago, alex_holden said:

 

I've used the M3 version on two instruments. ISTR I didn't use M2.5 because I couldn't find any long enough at the time. They look a bit nicer if you smooth out the profile of the head, reduce the head diameter a tiny bit, and give them a mirror polish. Here they are on No. 9, next to No. 10 with my traditional hand made brass screws. Whichever sort of head you use I recommend supplying the instrument with a good quality screwdriver that fits well.

 

On the one I'm building at the moment, the client has asked for traditional slotted screws but in stainless steel.

Those are some lovely bits of work Alex.

 

To me the button heads look fine, but then they against a shiny (stainless steel?) background. They might not look so good against the dark wood background, where the brass would seem to be more subtle, irrespective of the head form.

 

Can stainless be chemically blackened?

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Clive Thorne