New makers… a suggestion quick release

[alex_holden]

17 minutes ago, Clive Thorne said:

Those are some lovely bits of work Alex.

 

To me the button heads look fine, but then they against a shiny (stainless steel?) background. They might not look so good against the dark wood background, where the brass would seem to be more subtle, irrespective of the head form.

 

Thanks! The bottom end plate is nickel plated nickel silver and the top one is aluminium.

 

21 minutes ago, Clive Thorne said:

Can stainless be chemically blackened?

 

Interesting idea. I've not tried it myself, but Google says yes it can. The chemicals are a bit pricey though.

[RAc]

This discussion is getting quite bizarr.

 

As for my playing habits, my concertinas spend 99+ of their life times either in their cases or in my hands. In both scenarios, about the only parts I am NOT in visual contact with are the end plate bolt heads. Why on earth would I even consider pawning off their visuals against usability and surface protection?

 

I congratulate myself for asking Alex for hex bolts on #3 whenever I have to open the box, even if it is only once every ten months. One of the problems with slotted heads is that in every household I know, there are about two dozen screw drivers with slotted heads of which all but one somewhat fit the size of your end place bolt heads but not quite, and the one that fits perfectly has very likely been used recently by a family member to pry open a jar of pickled cucumbers. It is all in Murphy's laws, 2.42(1). So whenever you need to open your box and your are NOT the impeccable craftsperson who keeps his/her tools well maintained and accessible 24/7, your slotted bolt heads WILL jib, and your end plates WILL scratch. Why anyone would want that knowing he or she will almost never get to enjoy the looks escapes me.

 

As for the visuals: It's purely personal taste, so no discussng that, but I have always felt that hex bolts on a hex shaped object have a fractal touch to it which I personally find rather pleasing. Also, if I did enjoy looking at slotted heades, something inside me would argue that they would look even better if the slots were perfectly aligned or had some other geometric aesthetic to them such as radial alignment. It wouldn't be a good idea to try that, though. With hex or other centered bolt heads, that problem does not manifest itself. 

 

But whatever, as long as we have the luxury to discuss minuscule details like that, we are still in fairly good shape.
 

[hjcjones]

2 hours ago, RAc said:

So whenever you need to open your box and your are NOT the impeccable craftsperson who keeps his/her tools well maintained and accessible 24/7, your slotted bolt heads WILL jib, and your end plates WILL scratch.
 

I am certainly not an impeccable craftsman, although I do keep my concertina tools separate from the rest (which doesn't mean they don't sometimes get grabbed for other jobs). I can't say I've found it difficult to avoid damaging the endplates, it just takes a bit of care and patience. A plastic tube over the shaft of the screwdriver may help, but can also be a hindrance and I don't always bother with it.

 

Of course if you do fear causing damage this way then an alternative bolt type may ease your concerns. My worry would be that I might need to make a running repair during a session or gig and might not have the specific tool with me. It is nearly always possible to borrow a flat-head screwdriver from someone (usually from another concertina player) but other types might be hard to find.

[Clive Thorne]

2 hours ago, RAc said:

has very likely been used recently by a family member to pry open a jar of pickled cucumbers.

Mmm....... Pickled Cucumbers.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

Pickled Onions are also very tangy indeed!!!!

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

4 hours ago, RAc said:

Also, if I did enjoy looking at slotted heades, something inside me would argue that they would look even better if the slots were perfectly aligned or had some other geometric aesthetic to them such as radial alignment.
 

 

Same here  

[seanc]

TBH...

 I really do not like opening up the box at all. I'd prefer not to. But, I had an issue with a couple of spings. Where they just really lost their strength. So, I made some springs and replaced them. I then noticed that difference in the action from button to button was really more noticable. The new springs were more positive, the action faster and notes just stopped much more cleanly on the release. And the height of the buttons with the new springs was noticable vs old. So, I have had to open it a few times.

 

 

I am also having an issue with a note on the pull. So, I have had to try to pull out, re-seat it and then close it all up to know if I was sucessful or not.

 

 

My Crane is such, that, the end bolts are a mix of eras. Some only go into certain holes. And I have also noticed. that if it is not tightened down... JUST RIGHT.. some notes won't sound.  So, until it's stablized.. Quite a bit of fiddling... And the condition of the end bolts when I got it were not exactly pristine either...

 

So, something that would be easily removed and prove for consisitent lock up. would be great.

 

What if... if there were a bolt.. With flat nail head type base. That end would go on the face. Giving a blank circle visually. Then the bolt went all the way through and was tightened on the bellows side via maybe a hex nut? Or washers with a cotter pin?

I would also see the upside here that as there are no threads inside of the ends there would be less to go wrong. and replacing an end bolt may be less dependant on exact hardware. And possibly less likely to chip/ gnaw away edges of the wood face as there would be no tools used on that side of the instrument. .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wally Carroll]

Sean, not sure I’m getting the right visual on this . . . but if the bolt end that is on the outside of the instrument (I’m assuming in the middle of the endplate) is a flat round circle, how do you loosen it to get inside the instrument?  As I understand, you are suggesting that there is a nut or cotterpin inside the instrument that connects the other end of this bolt to the bellows frame, but how would you loosen this nut or pull this pin from outside the instrument?

[seanc]

My hypothetical .. would be something like a bolt with a flat nail like flat thin head..

let’s say… ====|
 

the flat would go against the fretted face. So. The flat replaces where screw heads are now.

 

but, instead of that head connecting via screw to threads inside of the ends. This bolt goes all the way through the ends. So smooth hole through the ends.

 

then on the outside of the ends opposite the face and buttons, I am thinking recessed. You would attach the mechanical connection , outside of the ends. Via nut. Or washers and cotter pin or whatever.
 

so, from the button/ face side, you’d see a blank head. then You’d tighten via something in the area between the inside end and the bellows. There would be no mechanical connection inside the ends. Pressure is put on the ends from the exterior. 

 

        so [=======|
bellows———-button ends

 

where there is nothing inside the ends just a smooth hole. It would give quite a few options for swapping out.. bling out the bolt faces. Etched designs, bedazzle it etc. and relatively quick and easy to swap. The connection (bellows side) would be basically invisible from the exterior/ face view.

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by seanc

[David Barnert]

11 hours ago, RAc said:

One of the problems with slotted heads is that in every household I know, there are about two dozen screw drivers with slotted heads of which all but one somewhat fit the size of your end place bolt heads but not quite, and the one that fits perfectly has very likely been used recently by a family member to pry open a jar of pickled cucumbers.

 

I found a slotted screwdriver in a hardware store that fits my end bolts perfectly. It doesn’t do so badly on the screws that open the action boxes, either. I built a receptacle for it inside my concertina case that keeps it away from the instrument, so it’s always there and nobody uses it for anything else.

[Notemaker]

If I did not work in tiny screws in other things I would not have an opinion. Well I do, and so I have.

 

In my experience Phillips 'cross' head screws are infinitely better than slot head. Because a tool head is locked into the center and cannot slip off as would a flat spade head screw driver in a slot head screw.

 

As to the look of it, TBH I do not think it matters as much as quality of sound.

But if I were to re-design how the instrument is built, then the button / plunger is where I would make drastic changes.

 

First of all, the button rod needs be far longer, seated in a deeper well, sprung in the well bottom with coil spring, and  made of light metal/wire , not wood. Yes re-springing would then be more difficult, yet the benefit of firm travel with zero wobble, and longer lasting spring is more than enough to justify the design.

 

 

 

 

 

[RAc]

10 hours ago, seanc said:

My hypothetical .. would be something like a bolt with a flat nail like flat thin head..

let’s say… ====|
 

the flat would go against the fretted face. So. The flat replaces where screw heads are now.

 

but, instead of that head connecting via screw to threads inside of the ends. This bolt goes all the way through the ends. So smooth hole through the ends.

 

then on the outside of the ends opposite the face and buttons, I am thinking recessed. You would attach the mechanical connection , outside of the ends. Via nut. Or washers and cotter pin or whatever.
 

so, from the button/ face side, you’d see a blank head. then You’d tighten via something in the area between the inside end and the bellows. There would be no mechanical connection inside the ends. Pressure is put on the ends from the exterior. 

 

        so [=======|
bellows———-button ends

 

where there is nothing inside the ends just a smooth hole. It would give quite a few options for swapping out.. bling out the bolt faces. Etched designs, bedazzle it etc. and relatively quick and easy to swap. The connection (bellows side) would be basically invisible from the exterior/ face view.

 

If I understand your concept right, there would need to be recesses in the outer frame to allow a tool to be attached. I believe that there would be considerable dangers in that, given that the frames also serve in making the entire assembly air tight.

Edited February 23, 2023 by RAc

[hjcjones]

11 hours ago, seanc said:

My Crane is such, that, the end bolts are a mix of eras. Some only go into certain holes. And I have also noticed. that if it is not tightened down... JUST RIGHT.. some notes won't sound.  So, until it's stablized.. Quite a bit of fiddling... And the condition of the end bolts when I got it were not exactly pristine either...

 

These seem to be issues arising from the history of your particular instrument rather than an inherent design fault, and possibly fixable by a competent repairer.

 

I have no aesthetic objections to alternative bolt types, and there are far more (and more effective) options available than there were to the early makers. We all need to get inside our instruments from time to time, and I agree that when multiple adjustments have to be made this can be a faff.  I can also see the benefit of being able to apply a consistent and correct pressure.  However I find it difficult to envisage how quick-release mechanism could be designed which was neither visually intrusive and would not add substantially to the cost of a new instrument. Bolts are cheap and simple.

[David Barnert]

Has anybody ever tried something like a suitcase (or concertina case)-type latch in the center of each side on each end (ie., 12 of them for a six-sided instrument)? Or maybe half as many, on every other side?

 

 

I can see a possible problem if the loosen a little over time.

 

 

[wunks]

1 hour ago, David Barnert said:

Has anybody ever tried something like a suitcase (or concertina case)-type latch in the center of each side on each end (ie., 12 of them for a six-sided instrument)? Or maybe half as many, on every other side?

 

 

I can see a possible problem if the loosen a little over time.

 

 

When I was thinking along these lines ( steam punk pipe dream ) I looked at some types of fancy jewelry box clasps.  I think you could get along with just one if you used a tab on the opposite side ( like a plastic battery changing port ) and a couple of pilot nubs to line things up correctly.  I think there are ( or could be ) cam-acting clasps ( like on a window sash, perhaps operated with a thumb screw ) that could be semi-inset.  You could also just reduce the # of end bolts.  Maybe two would be sufficient.......🤔

[Steve Schulteis]

18 hours ago, Notemaker said:

In my experience Phillips 'cross' head screws are infinitely better than slot head. Because a tool head is locked into the center and cannot slip off as would a flat spade head screw driver in a slot head screw.

 

I used to hold this view as well, but while Phillips solves the problem of keeping the driver aligned with the screw head, it was designed to cam out as a means of limiting torque, marring the head in the process. I now prefer star or hex drive, the latter having an advantage for concertinas in that it's easy to tuck an Allen wrench securely in the corner of a concertina case, and it's more likely that someone else has the correct wrench handy in the event that it gets lost.

 

 

18 hours ago, Notemaker said:

First of all, the button rod needs be far longer, seated in a deeper well, sprung in the well bottom with coil spring, and  made of light metal/wire , not wood. Yes re-springing would then be more difficult, yet the benefit of firm travel with zero wobble, and longer lasting spring is more than enough to justify the design.

 

I've spent some time considering alternative action systems, and even done some prototyping. At this point I'm satisfied that the standard system is pretty hard to beat. Not that it's perfect, but it's got a good balance in its compromises. It's still fun to experiment though, and I'd be curious to see a drawing of your design to see if I'm picturing it correctly. A bit off topic here, so maybe PM me or start a new thread.

 

Is spring lifetime an issue? Torsion springs are capable of surviving millions of cycles if designed correctly.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Steve Schulteis
Fix typos

[gcoover]

Slightly off thread, but one big improvement I'd like to see would be some sort of quick-change handstrap adjustment. I know Wheatstone had an in-line version at one time. Having to fuss with two handstrap screws just to quickly try someone else's concertina is a huge pain.

 

Gary

[alex_holden]

30 minutes ago, gcoover said:

Slightly off thread, but one big improvement I'd like to see would be some sort of quick-change handstrap adjustment. I know Wheatstone had an in-line version at one time. Having to fuss with two handstrap screws just to quickly try someone else's concertina is a huge pain.

 

Gary

Like the spring and pin mechanism Dana Johnson invented?