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Apple Watch vs Concertina Decibels


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Hi, all,

I'm new here and a new player, with a McNeela Phoenix Anglo 30 button Jeffries layout. I wear an Apple Watch and, because I am concerned about further hearing loss, I turned on the feature for sound level monitoring. Every once in a while, it will notify me of a "loud environment", due to levels detected during one of my weekly jams (all acoustic). However, since I started in with the concertina, the watch regularly notifies me of 90db exposure. Of course, the watch is immediately adjacent to the lefthand sound blast area--is there a term for where the sound comes out of the "vents", left and right? I am a lifelong custom hearing pro wearer, for work as well as "loud recreation."

 

I also am a fiddler, and am well aware that a fiddle can be quite loud, also into the 90 dB level (according to my OSHA10 class, not the watch, which couldn't care less, apparently). When I learn a tune from YouTube or other recording, for comparison, I really must wear full coverage headphones so that my own playing doesn't blot out the source. Even my heavy mutes can't quite cover compared with a pumped up source recording that threatens the peace of my shared-wall neighbor.

 

I do try to play/practice with as much subtlety as I can manage as a beginner, without being timid. Does anyone have any other info on the potential for hearing damage via concertina? Any similar experience, comments, etc? I have noticed in recent years that highland pipers are now wearing hearing pro, for example. Just take off my watch when I play (haha)?

 

My monaural hearing loss has been courtesy of an idiopathic cause, and began when I was a teen. I am anxious to keep what I can. TIA for any takes/responses.

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Concertinas are loud. Very loud, which is then amplified by playing inside small rooms. I had to cover my CC Elise's "fretwork" with EVA foam inserts to stop my ears hurting after just a couple of tunes into practice session, because it peaked at >100dB, with >90dB being the norm. When creating my current box I designed it so it has ~70dB at typical pressure.


What you can do, is install EVA foam baffle under the fretwork. You only need a thin line (around 1mm) of opening around the perimeter of the baffle for reeds to get enough air.

If you don't want to modify your concertina from the inside, you can simply tack a cutout from the foam for practice sessions from the outside. It will not be pretty, but it will work if it is near airtight. Other than that, you can play outside. Concertinas project the sound sideways, away from the player. Playing outside, away from solid walls, no sound bounces back to you. 

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It sounds like you are having a fantastic time playing your music.

But, concertina does not always have to be loud (unless, of course you want it to be)..it can be played in all sorts of ways, even very quietly too.

Carry on with your Concertina playing as it seems you are already transfixed by the instrument. ((Maybe your neighbour will jig along to it eventually too!)..

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Apologies for being obtuse. 
 

but is the issue the level of the concertina?
 

Or, is more a question of your hearing and needed threshold?

 

I understand they are a combination. But, is the root cause that you need to be under a certain perceived db level? 
 

depending on what you are doing. Maybe you can do what a lot of shooters do and wear foam plugs. And the put your headphones over them?

 

Solutions of baffles may make sense.

 

but, you may just opt for more earmuffs for now. And once you are ready to move up. Look specifically for something like a brass reed and wood end box. There can be a huge volume difference between wood, metal and plastic.

 

I had girlfriend related volume issues with my metal ended Wheatstone. Once I picked up a wood ended model, most of the whining went away.  Some boxes are just plain LOUD.

 

 



 

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Loudness to the ear comes in two varieties. There is technical loudness and this conforms to square law. If you double the distance between your watch and the sound source the db level will halve. Your watch is very close and your ears at least twice as far away and perhaps as many as four times meaning it will halve again. 
 

The other variety of loudness is perceived loudness. One way this is created is by discord. We hear discord as louder (this is the principle accordions work on).  Concertinas with loud higher partials which are naturally out of tune with lower partials will get in your ear and are unpleasant. This explains the experience of seanc above. 

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47 minutes ago, Chris Ghent said:

Loudness to the ear comes in two varieties. There is technical loudness and this conforms to square law. If you double the distance between your watch and the sound source the db level will halve. Your watch is very close and your ears at least twice as far away and perhaps as many as four times meaning it will halve again.

 

A couple corrections - half loudness results in a 3 decibel drop, not half the decibels. Logarithmic scales are weird like that. Second, inverse square law means doubling the distance should reduce the volume to one quarter. Taken together, doubling the distance results in a 6 dB drop in volume.

 

The final point of that paragraph is a good one, though - the watch is much closer to the sound than your ear. It might be worth setting it on your shoulder while you play to see what it reads in that position.

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9 hours ago, Steve Schulteis said:

 

A couple corrections - half loudness results in a 3 decibel drop, not half the decibels. Logarithmic scales are weird like that. Second, inverse square law means doubling the distance should reduce the volume to one quarter. Taken together, doubling the distance results in a 6 dB drop in volume.

 

The final point of that paragraph is a good one, though - the watch is much closer to the sound than your ear. It might be worth setting it on your shoulder while you play to see what it reads in that position.

I am not sure if it is possible. But all questions of math distance and frequency aside. If there were a way to put the mic/ db meter inside the earphones to get a better and more accurate reading would be useful.

 

as mentioned. Having the meter directly next to the source is definitely problematic. 90db is generally not considered to be dangerous or problematic. Given the OP’s concern and threshold limitations. Getting an accurate reading seems pretty important.

 

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1 hour ago, seanc said:

90db is generally not considered to be dangerous or problematic.

 

Keep in mind that the duration of exposure is a factor in this. 90 dB can be a problem if you're spending a lot of time in it.

 

https://www.asha.org/public/hearing/loud-noise-dangers/

Edited by Steve Schulteis
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My personal experience is that concertina dB measured at 1m, exceeding 90dB hurt my ears. I think this is mostly about the energy caried by higher partials, because higher reeds hurt more and bass reeds don’t hurt no matter the meter readout. The box I made had very open fretwork originally and had to be baffled with carefully designed irregular baffle to cut those partialls. I first cut those and then continued with refinement of the baffle and then corrected padhole diameter to lower and even out the perceived loudness (perceived loudness differs greatly from measured loudness, so low reeds measure at different dB levels than high reeds).

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18 hours ago, seanc said:

Apologies for being obtuse. 
 

but is the issue the level of the concertina?
 

Or, is more a question of your hearing and needed threshold?

 

I understand they are a combination. But, is the root cause that you need to be under a certain perceived db level? 
 

depending on what you are doing. Maybe you can do what a lot of shooters do and wear foam plugs. And the put your headphones over them?

 

Solutions of baffles may make sense.

 

but, you may just opt for more earmuffs for now. And once you are ready to move up. Look specifically fnr something like a brass reed and wood end box. There can be a huge volume difference between wood, metal and plastic.

 

I had girlfriend related volume issues with my metal ended Wheatstone. Once I picked up a wood ended model, most of the whining went away.  Some boxes are just plain LOUD.

 

 



 

My concertina, a McNeela Phoenix, is already a wood ended model, with steel reeds. I hate to have to resort to having to wear hearing pro during play (I have been a shooter and have done exactly as you mention, doubling up, but it is a PIA and uncomfortable for long due to my princess and the pea canals and ears. Even my customs can get old over time). It is the watch's sensor that says 90dB, which is the level that can cause hearing damage if it lasts 30 min or more--actually lower levels can as well, as many already know, but it takes longer. I have even thrown a towel over the entire affair, which seemed to make a little difference (though obviously not to the watch's sensor).

Edited by a4naught
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15 hours ago, Steve Schulteis said:

 

A couple corrections - half loudness results in a 3 decibel drop, not half the decibels. Logarithmic scales are weird like that. Second, inverse square law means doubling the distance should reduce the volume to one quarter. Taken together, doubling the distance results in a 6 dB drop in volume.

 

The final point of that paragraph is a good one, though - the watch is much closer to the sound than your ear. It might be worth setting it on your shoulder while you play to see what it reads in that position.

Great suggestion for the watch on the shoulder. Huh. Why didn't I think of that? This is what forums are for.

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Yes, Steve, you are right about the duration of exposure for the 90dB (which my watch dutifully warns). That is my issue. I find learning and playing this new instrument to be trance-like, so I tend to go on and on and lose track of time. I am fortunate in that luxury and a "short" session of a half hour invariably turns into hours. I'll see what I can rig up with the watch and see what it senses. Thank you all for your input. 

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On 2/3/2023 at 11:39 AM, wunks said:

Your Idea with the towel might the right approach.  I think there was a thread here some time ago about using an old fashioned hand muff modified with side entry for your hands and closed ends.....😊

Ah! Another great obvious idea that wasn't obvious to me. Kinda like the hand muffs that are worn by motorcyclists who don't have large touring bikes with massive fairings.

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Environment can affect sound production very much also. For example, I often use my pleasent little back room to play tunes in, and the sound is flat, with no reverberation, or pleasent echo at all, and so I have to project the sound with more effort. And as the old saying goes, a tiled space .like I have in another place in my house, gives a lovely reflection of sound, with little effort, and so a complete contrast. I once tried out performing briefly inside a Chapel, with marvellous acoustic, providing me with wonderful clarity, and  control of loud and soft tones, with deep echo.

So, maybe these will affect your own sound production too.

 

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On 2/3/2023 at 2:39 PM, wunks said:

Your Idea with the towel might the right approach.  I think there was a thread here some time ago about using an old fashioned hand muff modified with side entry for your hands and closed ends.....😊

 

 I think that was Wendy in Massachusetts, but others (David Barnert ?) would know.

 

Ken

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