Recording concertina quartet arrangements using a DAW

[SteveS]

I'm working on a number of arrangements for concertina quartet - 2 trebles, baritone and bass.

I'm thinking to record these arrangements into my DAW playing all of the parts myself.

Does anyone have any tips on how best to work at this - my initial thoughts:

• record the bass part first, using a metronome for timing accuracy
• then record the treble 1 part to establish the melody (well mostly melody)
• then record treble 2 and baritone parts to create the harmony

My DAW allows me to play back recorded parts for multi-tracking, as well as parts created in the DAW using a keyboard - so I could potentially playback some or all of my score at the same time as recording a part - something I've not yet tried.

Any other thoughts on approach? 

How have others here approached the subject of recording parts using a DAW?

 

[Steve Schulteis]

I'm no expert, but I have played with this sort of thing a bit.

 

Getting the timing right/steady in the initial recording is really important. Your plan to use a metronome is a good one. Use the one built into your DAW if you can.

 

I've generally found it easier to record melody first and then harmony. That may depend a bit on your playing style - ideally I'd want a percussive start to the sounds I'm relying on for timing. I also have an easier time keeping phrasing sounding natural when I start with the melody, although that will depend on the style of the arrangement.

 

I do find it useful to play previously recorded parts during each new recording.

 

Whichever part you record first, it may help if you keep the click track active for all the recordings.

[SteveS]

Thanks Steve

 

Yes using the DAW's click track is a good idea to help synchronise.

 

One of my arrangements is a tango so the bass part should establish the rhythm first I feel.  

 

I'll have to experiment, and I was soliciting tips to carry into my planning and execution of my arrangements using the DAW.

Edited January 4, 2023 by SteveS

[seanc]

What I would do...

 

Click track is 100% necessary. And should be used 100% of the time. IME.

 

there is always going to be that ONE section. where you just don't play it clean enough, and the timing will be off. It is better to keep going and go back and over dub it than to have the whole band get all wonky driving over the cliff to follow the leader and for that one measure and then back on the click.

 

And if ALL of the parts are aiming for the click and NOT whatever the "guide track" is doing. generally, the rhythms will be quite a bit more in time.

 

(this is like when people sing "back up" and they say, I am singing "in tune" with the lead. Well the lead singer is rarely "in tune". Being a "little off" from the lead means that that back up singer is actually More out of tune.  What needs to happen is that "back up" singer needs to know they need to sing an "A" and get as close to in tune on that "A" as they can be)...

 

 

 

Depending on the complexity of the arrangement. I would probably start with the one thing that holds it all together. And that everything else guides off of.

 

Sometimes that could be the bass line. But many times, you need to have a good amount of movement in a bass line to make it interesting. So, (again depending on the arrangement) the Bass very well may often times be avoiding playing the root on the one. which can be confusing for some people. (I call these people "GUITARISTS")

 

Generally, whatever is playing the "rhythm guitar line" will actually be the thing that everyone is guiding off and is really spelling out the chord changes and placement of those changes. if there is any improv involved, either in the bass or melody and variations. It may be easier to have a more set in stone chord structure to follow.

 

BUT, if you are playing a written piece with the parts cast in stone and written out. Then, IMO, it really does not matter as long as you are able to play consistently in time. As you are using the click and your eyes to keep you on track.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by seanc

[seanc]

Another thing to consider. And again, extremely dependent on the actual piece.

 

But if you're using a DAW. You may actually be able to essentially play sections and then piece it all together.

 

If what you are doing has multiple repeated sections. You may easily get away with recording each section, or even parts of sections. Saving those as items. And then piecing those items together into sections and possibly the whole song.

 

Example... if your verse section is D/D/C/G repeated 4 or 6 or 8 times. You may be able to get away with getting one clean pass of D/D/C/G and then pasting it together the required amount of times and saving it as a verse.

 

Then paste your Verse  2 or 4 times as the song requires and repeat that process for Choruses..

 

 

You get into a situation where you start to think would you rather playing it? Or would you rather spend time and editing it.

 

if you are doing a tango, it may have sections of extended repeats/ vamps. As a dance can drag out depending on the choreography involved. Dancers/ soloists each get a 4/8/16 bar solo, etc..

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by seanc

[Howard Mitchell]

Steve,

here are a couple of examples, one on concertina and one on melodeon.
https://youtu.be/1s1gt-UXJGY

https://youtu.be/xyqgikYeRA4

 

in both cases I started with the treble line and then added others. I find a click track is not always necessary but it’s useful to have a lead in either counting or clicks so you know when to come in. 
 

Which DAW are you using? It may have some features which will help you e.g. do multiple takes and select sections from each take. 
 

Are you recording with one mic or in stereo? Are the mics and placement the same for all instruments? Be careful with eq-ing differently for each instrument and their stereo placement so that the instruments sound as if they’re in the same place. 
 

Let us know how you get on.

 

[SteveS]

1 hour ago, Howard Mitchell said:

Steve,

here are a couple of examples, one on concertina and one on melodeon.
https://youtu.be/1s1gt-UXJGY

https://youtu.be/xyqgikYeRA4

Thanks for these - very inspiring.

 

1 hour ago, Howard Mitchell said:

 

in both cases I started with the treble line and then added others. I find a click track is not always necessary but it’s useful to have a lead in either counting or clicks so you know when to come in. 
 

Which DAW are you using? It may have some features which will help you e.g. do multiple takes and select sections from each take. 

 

My DAW is Samplitude Pro X.

 

1 hour ago, Howard Mitchell said:

Are you recording with one mic or in stereo? Are the mics and placement the same for all instruments? Be careful with eq-ing differently for each instrument and their stereo placement so that the instruments sound as if they’re in the same place. 

I had planned to position mics either side of the tina and recording 2 tracks per instrument/part - your suggestion about mic placement looks like I need to experiment with mic positioning and then not change it between instruments.  2 mics might however introduce an additional level of complexity - so maybe 1 mic/track per instrument will be best.

 

1 hour ago, Howard Mitchell said:

Let us know how you get on.

 

Will do.

 

There are a lot of factors to consider and lot of research and experimentation to get best results - plus I need to learn my DAW too.  This could be a fascinating journey - something I've been wanting to do for years.

 

I'm still working on my arrangements - I use MuseScore 4 which has the ability to playback concertina samples - so this is a good way for getting an idea about how the final product might sound.

My audio interface is a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20.

Edited January 4, 2023 by SteveS

[SteveS]

Thanks seanc for your suggestions.

 

My tango arrangement does have quite a few repeats in the bass line so record/copy/edit might work.

 

More things to experiment with.

[Steve Schulteis]

13 minutes ago, SteveS said:

I had planned to position mics either side of the tina and recording 2 tracks per instrument/part - your suggestion about mic placement looks like I need to experiment with mic positioning and then not change it between instruments.  2 mics might however introduce an additional level of complexity - so maybe 1 mic/track per instrument will be best.

 

I'd start with a single mic to keep things simple. With four parts to pan, you'll still have plenty to fill the space.

 

 

13 minutes ago, SteveS said:

I'm still working on my arrangements - I use MuseScore 4 with has the ability to playback concertina samples - so this is a good way for getting an idea about how the final product might sound.

 

Hmm, I need to look into setting that up in MuseScore 4 myself. Are you using Phil Taylor's soundfont?

[SteveS]

6 minutes ago, Steve Schulteis said:

Hmm, I need to look into setting that up in MuseScore 4 myself. Are you using Phil Taylor's soundfont?

I downloaded the soundfont some time ago, so I'm not sure which soundfont it is.

I plan to create a soundfont based on my own instruments - the full range - bass, baritone, treble - so as to minimise sound extrapolation.

I'll make this soundfont available in due course.

Edited January 5, 2023 by SteveS

[Howard Mitchell]

I'm not familiar with Amplitude but looking at its spec it has everything you'll need and more besides.

 

I can recommend the microphone articles at dpa. Much is about placement for live sound but try https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-university/stereo-recording-techniques-and-setups for stereo placement.  I've heard recordings done with mics facing inwards on each side of a concertina which are unnerving when you listen, particularly with headphones, with the image skipping from side to side.

 

I'm using a Focusrite Scarlett for most of my current YouTube recordings normally with an AKG 414 mic but many of my earlier recordings were done with stereo pairs in various configurations.

You can see the mics in shot at https://youtu.be/xDFjUYvKt5o in a mid-side configuration.

 

Mitch

 

[Richard Mellish]

I'm slghtly surprised by the enthusiasm for a metronome or click track. Is strict tempo desirable? If four musicians were playing together, wouldn't they be listening to each other rather than to a metronome?

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I do not have any idea what a DAW is!

But, I have recently been in process of writing Duos ( two parts).. and had first a strong melodic idea, and adapted to the second instrument from there.. it provided a good outline to take the melody via two parts. In recording it, I used video .. and played melody part first, then made a CD of which I monitored in earphones, to play the second recorded part to. After all this .. I processed the audio  ( in software) and carefully overlayed the two tracks together.(.Played it when recording  via. reading the music off my written music manuscript  sheet as I did the parts. Sounds a bit complex but it works!

[Steve Schulteis]

2 hours ago, Richard Mellish said:

I'm slghtly surprised by the enthusiasm for a metronome or click track. Is strict tempo desirable? If four musicians were playing together, wouldn't they be listening to each other rather than to a metronome?

 

I won't make as strong a statement in favor of click tracks as seanc, but they do help a lot. As he said, timing errors in each track can compound to result in a muddy-sounding mess. Syncing to a click track helps avoid this. It seems like it shouldn't be so different from a live group in theory, but it sure feels different to me. Part of it might be that there's no push-pull between performers - just a fixed recording that you have to match exactly.

 

It's also handy for editing later. The software can indicate time/beats visually and provide a lot of help lining tracks up, making little corrections, re-recording bits, etc, if you're synchronized to its metronome. It's not required, but it can be useful.

[SteveS]

3 hours ago, Richard Mellish said:

I'm slghtly surprised by the enthusiasm for a metronome or click track. Is strict tempo desirable? If four musicians were playing together, wouldn't they be listening to each other rather than to a metronome?

I think the click track is useful for underpinning the timing of the track - especially if say laying down the bass track first.

 

Another alternative might be to program the DAW with the tracks taken from the score and then play along to those.

 

I need to discover the techniques that work for me myself - but this thread is highlighting some very interesting ideas to take into account.

[SteveS]

4 hours ago, Howard Mitchell said:

I'm using a Focusrite Scarlett for most of my current YouTube recordings normally with an AKG 414 mic but many of my earlier recordings were done with stereo pairs in various configurations.

You can see the mics in shot at https://youtu.be/xDFjUYvKt5o in a mid-side configuration.

 

I have Shure SM57 and  RØDE NT1 mics. 

(I've been collecting studio gear for the last few years acquiring kit in sales, when reduced in price, or at auction.)

Edited January 5, 2023 by SteveS

[Steve Schulteis]

3 hours ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

In recording it, I used video .. and played melody part first, then made a CD of which I monitored in earphones, to play the second recorded part to.

 

My great-grandfather did something similar with records long, long before I was born. I should dig up those recordings again...

[David Barnert]

3 hours ago, SIMON GABRIELOW said:

I do not have any idea what a DAW is!

 

Digital Audio Workstation. Essentially, a piece of software that allows you to edit and combine audio tracks to create an audio file.