First Concertina for Irish music

[Peter Laban]

I'd be wary of generalising. Irish music tends to be in D. Yes, except when it isn't.

 

There's a reason why players of Irish music don't use the G/D, except for a limited number of tunes, perhaps. There are players who play 'on the rows' who prefer the (two row) D /A but their number is relatively limited too. That said, I played for years with a lovely 'on the rows' player who treated her 30 button instrument as a two row and I don't think she felt limited by it at any point. In fact she was  always pining for a nice two row, if we could find her one.

 

The two row C/G has its limitations but as an introduction, a starter instrument it's a great alternative to cheap 30 button accordion reeded instruments.

 

But for the OP it may just  be a little late to pick a nice one, if they want to find one before Christmas.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Peter Laban

[Sohcahtoa]

I personally started out on a borrowed 20 button Scholer, and soon after acquired a Rochelle, one of the first ones that Wim brought over. I found it useful for getting my head around the accidental row, but very frustrating to play tunes on. I think coming from the instrument as a fiddle player, I more quickly wanted to translate how I was hearing them in my head into the instrument. 

 

I eventually sold the Rochelle and got a 20 button rosewood Lachenal. It was a particularly good one, so caveat emptor as there is a lot of variability between Lachenals. However the instrument allowed me to sound how I was hearing in my head, and responded properly for learning ornamentation. There is a reasonable number of tunes that can be played in relative "D" pitch (not key of D necessarily, but as you would on a D whistle or pipes) and then there is also utility in learning tunes in C, transposed down from the usual D - a la Kitty Hayes, Mrs Crotty etc. 

 

Now over 10 years on, I feel like having a strong foundation in along-the-rows playing is helpful and has shaped my playing style in a unique way. I think it helps coming to the instrument from an existing musical background, as it was more a matter of getting the tunes out, rather than simultaneously learning the music and the instrument. But were I to do it again, I'd go with a 20 button Lachenal, at least until I could move up to a 26 button or 30+. 

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I would say do not worry too much over the key instrument is theoretically pitched in all the time, otherwise it can perhaps discourage someone from realising that in fact there is always a bigger world of music out there that can still be played [ on concertinas] if you open up the scope a bit more.  For example, [30 key Anglo in C or G ] generally speaking has loads of accidentals available and so enabling you to go far beyond the deemed general range of its named key rows; a few missing notes are [ I believe] not too much problem, as you can always transpose if required. Maybe with 20 key there is less opportunity for accidentals, but nevertheless, there is always more scope beyond the theoretical designed layout; just search them out.

[Luke Hillman]

9 hours ago, Peter Laban said:

I'd be wary of generalising. Irish music tends to be in D. Yes, except when it isn't.

 

There's a reason why players of Irish music don't use the G/D, except for a limited number of tunes, perhaps. There are players who play 'on the rows' who prefer the (two row) D /A but their number is relatively limited too. That said, I played for years with a lovely 'on the rows' player who treated her 30 button instrument as a two row and I don't think she felt limited by it at any point. In fact she was  always pining for a nice two row, if we could find her one.

 

The two row C/G has its limitations but as an introduction, a starter instrument it's a great alternative to cheap 30 button accordion reeded instruments.

 

But for the OP it may just  be a little late to pick a nice one, if they want to find one before Christmas.

 

Right, "except when it isn't" being the exception. I tried to cover my bases with "tends to be mostly" —anyway, generalizations can be useful

 

Though I didn't say so, my original response was strongly influenced by Fiddling's daughter being an "experienced classical violinist", i.e., new to concertina but certainly not new to music. I'd be surprised if she hasn't already developed some musical preferences that might be taken into account. When I took up concertina, I was interested in the volume, the portability, and the opportunity to explore harmonies and polyphony more generally (no surprise that I've since become a maximalist and am always questing for more buttons). Some folks are more interested in the simplicity and the musical choices enforced by the limitations. It would be good to have a sense of the value she assigns to those factors when making a decision on an instrument.

 

Here's where my ignorance is really going to shine through: I know that a G/D or D/A would mean playing on the rows, which is not ideal if you're trying to achieve the flowy cross-row sound, but If I may inquire of the strong advocates for a 2-row C/G: do you just get along without the C#? Omit it from the music, or find another note that sounds okay there? Or is the ideal 20b one that has been altered to include the missing note?

 

I totally get that a vintage Lachenal is more of a joy to play, and Anglos are all about tradeoffs. In fact, I'm not sure I could bring myself to choose a Rochelle over a good 20b Lachenal myself, now, if I were forced. Probably more of a discussion than OP bargained for. Indeed, Christmas is such an unfortunate timeline!

Edited December 13, 2022 by Luke Hillman

[Sohcahtoa]

18 hours ago, Luke Hillman said:

 

 

Here's where my ignorance is really going to shine through: I know that a G/D or D/A would mean playing on the rows, which is not ideal if you're trying to achieve the flowy cross-row sound, but If I may inquire of the strong advocates for a 2-row C/G: do you just get along without the C#? Omit it from the music, or find another note that sounds okay there? Or is the ideal 20b one that has been altered to include the missing note?

 

 

Both, in my experience. There is an old thread on here somewhere that breaks down the number of tunes that can be played without a C#. Its also really useful to learn tunes along the row in C, and it comes in handy to have that familiarity with the home-rows. A lot of good concertina players can sit down at a flat pitch C session and get by on a C/G instrument.

[Peter Laban]

16 minutes ago, Sohcahtoa said:

Its also really useful to learn tunes along the row in C, and it comes in handy to have that familiarity with the home-rows. A lot of good concertina players can sit down at a flat pitch C session and get by on a C/G instrument.

There's that, I have sat with a good few players who switched to C onm the fly to suit the flat pipes. But listen to players like Claire Keville, Dympna O Sullivan, Mary MacNamara etc who build sets of tunes going from D to C, G and F all the time, and to great effect.

[Notemaker]

Unusual for me to comment on such a topic, yet feel that, in this case, must.

 

Decades of playing 'Irtrad', and folk tunes on Harmonica have taught me a great lesson; we can play a D scale tune on a diatonic tuned G instrument.

So if we elect to start off with the C/G Anglo Concertina; already, with barely one cross row button,  can easily play the D scale on it. Bonus, without any effort, can also play tunes in C Major, A Minor, F Major; and off of the G row, A Major, needn't mention E Minor because, well! its a pig on any system, yet a nice pig because when we get that far in, just a bit more fun.

 

Now about the idea that G/D instrument is easier than the C/G, yes! but as mentioned above, only for a few tunes.

 

It can be a very bad idea if our compass includes Classical, Folk, Morris, because most of that is done with the C/G.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

[Luke Hillman]

4 hours ago, Sohcahtoa said:

A lot of good concertina players can sit down at a flat pitch C session [...]

 

I didn't even know this was a thing. Thank you!

 

3 hours ago, Notemaker said:

[...] we can play a D scale tune on a diatonic tuned G instrument.

So if we elect to start off with the C/G Anglo Concertina [...]

 

This comment raises more questions for me. Since you mention harmonica, I'm compelled to ask: are you talking about starting with a 30-button C/G Anglo? Or have you somehow learned to do harmonica-style pitch-bending on a 20b C/G?

 

For my part, I truly am agnostic on tunings (well, aside from finding the lower ones more pleasing) unless I'm trying to play in a particular key.

 

 

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I believe that you need to play in different key tones; even outside the deemed key range designated by design, in order to progress.

You may have one row arranged in C, and row in G for example, you could just use the separate rows for those keys alone, but unless you are using 20 key instrument, then you are not wholly taking full advantage, of the possibilities available. (..(regarding particularly 30 button onwards). Working across rows is great excersise in coordination, and learning, for both mind and fingers.

[Sohcahtoa]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:59 AM, Peter Laban said:

There's that, I have sat with a good few players who switched to C onm the fly to suit the flat pipes. But listen to players like Claire Keville, Dympna O Sullivan, Mary MacNamara etc who build sets of tunes going from D to C, G and F all the time, and to great effect.

You just named three of my favourite concertina players. I think if that is the style that one aspires to, starting off with a C/G is probably not a bad idea at all. If one wants to dive deep into Noel Hill material right off the hop, then perhaps a 30 button (or at least a 26) might be a more suitable choice. 

[Luke Hillman]

It seems like some of you might be drawing a distinction between "C/G" and "30 buttons." Is that accurate? Is "C/G" sometimes shorthand for "exactly two rows, one in C and the other in G"? And anything more is "C/G plus", or something like that?

 

I have to ask because it seems like the discussion about tuning may be getting unintentionally muddled by the parallel discussion about number of buttons. Or maybe there's some group vocabulary I'm just not getting. Sorry to be so dense!

[Notemaker]

On 12/14/2022 at 2:11 PM, Luke Hillman said:

 

I didn't even know this was a thing. Thank you!

 

 

This comment raises more questions for me. Since you mention harmonica, I'm compelled to ask: are you talking about starting with a 30-button C/G Anglo? Or have you somehow learned to do harmonica-style pitch-bending on a 20b C/G?

 

For my part, I truly am agnostic on tunings (well, aside from finding the lower ones more pleasing) unless I'm trying to play in a particular key.

 

 

Well not bending notes on the Concertina, but talking about similarity between the C/G Anglo and a standard C Harmonica, or a G Harmonica. Sorry for the error.

[Fiddling]

Tried to post awhile back but it kept adding empty lines to my window and I couldn't delete then gave up.

 

I did order the Rochelle 2. There is a trade in program so I can upgrade using the price paid for this model.

 

She was very surprised, and loving it. She is really just getting into it today and is playing Jingle Bells, Lightly Row and Boil Them Cabbage. She has figured out some scales and arpeggios. We're still not quite clear on the structure so any good youtube video recommendations would be great. The ones we looked at weren't super clear. 

 

Thank you again for all the helpful advice. It was very interesting and informative. Great forum.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Fiddling

[Ken_Coles]

Perhaps she can report her experience to us here at some point (using your account or one of her own). As an admin I can tell you one of the things I get to do is remind some of our adult members that we have children on this forum also, and we aim to keep it family-appropriate. Regards,

 

Ken