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the finger rule of stagi duet concertina 46?


luli

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Hello, everybody!

I have played some simple songs with my accordion, such as oh susuana. Just now, I have a question. I don' t know if I need to fix the relationship between fingers and buttons, for example, the picture i  = index m = middle ,r = ring ch = little finger. Or I should play this song in a flexible way.

I hope you can share your suggestions and opinions. thank you

 

I hope I can follow the rules like the anglo, (clear division of labour). Maybe, in this way, I can play a lot of music directly. When I look at a new music sheet, I don't need to make the fingering for too much time.

However, it's not easy, because the little finger needs more practice, and it's short. At the same time, the left hand usually doesn't need to use strong index finger.

For example, when I play C F chord, I use little finger, ring finger, middle finger and G chord, and I use ring finger, middle finger and index finger. This is a clear division of labor. At the same time, all the middle fingers are ok, even so it's easy. I'm not sure which one is right.

微信图片_20221104223314.png

Edited by luli
make the question clear
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I am a newbie with a Wheatstone Maccann duet.  I've started this journey with Rutterford.  By the time I completed the 6th exercise, I was beginning to feel comfortable with the fingers being more or less attached to specific rows of buttons.  But then in exercise 7, "Preliminary exercises for the independent working of each hand" suddenly the fingers were no longer attached to a specific row, but shift: for instance, left hand finger 4 playing a bass clef "C" and then shifting to finger 3 for the "G" in the same row of buttons.  I was disappointed at having to do this, but, like the good Borg I am, I will adapt!  

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3 hours ago, luli said:

hi everyone 

i have use my concertina to play some easy song,such as oh susuana,just now ,i have a question.i dont know whether i need to fix the relationship of finger and the buttton such as the picture i=index m=middle r=ring ch=little finger。or i should use a flexible way to play the song.

i hope that you can share your suggestion and opinion. thx

微信图片_20221104223314.png

Your diagram shows what I use as my default finger choices for playing in D and G, I move the whole pattern left to play in C and F, and right to play in E and A.  Once you learn the fingering for a particular tune then you can simply shift left/right and/or up/down to play in a different key.  It works a bit like a capo on a guitar.  This is perhaps the biggest advantage of the Hayden layout.  I tend to learn to play a tune in God's key (G) and then shift it around to see if I like it better elsewhere.

 

But, note this is a default fingering only and you will come across situations where you will need to change it.  Often to avoid 'hopping' which is playing two different buttons consecutively using the same finger.  For example, a lot of tunes in G start by playing a D then a G, it does not sound good if you try to play both of those notes with the index finger.  A weaker rule is to avoid playing the same note twice with the same finger - sometimes this sounds OK, other times I try to avoid it.  I also find my little finger to be quite a bit less agile than my ring finger so I will often use the ring finger instead if it does not cause me problems with the next note.  I still have to use the little finger occasionally, but I try to avoid it, especially on the LHS.

 

There is a similar but mirrored set of default fingerings for the LHS.

 

So, yes, learn and try to use the default fingering but be prepared to change it when forced to do so.  I would guess that about 90% of the time I use the default fingering. 

 

As a beginner, you can start playing by just using the default fingering until it becomes second nature and then start to think about what to do when it feels clumsy and sounds stilted.

 

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In pretty much any of the common major keys, many Hayden players will start the scale with the middle finger, playing the scale (in your notation) as M R CH / I M R CH/ M. It’s a good habit to get into, although to be honest, playing Hayden for 35 years, I got into the habit of starting my major scales with the I finger, even if it means sliding my ring finger from the 6th to the 7th note. Works for me.

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David-

 

Would you be willing to briefly elaborate on why you start your scales with 2-3-4, rather than 1-2-3?  

 

I believe there was an old thread on this topic involving you, Rich Morse, and a few other stalwarts, but I don’t remember what the rationale was for the 2-3-4 approach.

 

Thanks!

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I don’t. Read my post again. A lot of people do. Brian Hayden does. Rich Morse (who first put a Hayden in my hands in 1987) did. The reason is so your hand will be in the optimal position to play 1234 on the next row for the 2nd half of the scale. But it’s a habit I never got into. I play almost everything with the first 3 fingers, only using the little finger in unusual situations like a raised 4th in the melody or a pedal tone on the left hand. I don’t claim it’s the best way to play, but it’s what I do and I’m too old to change now.

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I started playing the Stagi Hayden last year. On the right I play mostly with my first three fingers. Most of the earliest pieces I played were in G - often because I transposed them. If one is in C, I shift whole my hand one to the left.

 

But what about the left-hand fingering? When I started I chose to use the little finger of my left hand for the leftmost buttons - those I use my index finger for on the right. (That's when playing a a scored accompaniment, not chords.) It seemed the logical thing to do. After a year - and having got a Peacock - I began to wonder if this was a good decision, partly through reading some posts here. But by then I was used to it, so I stuck with it. I usually start playing with some finger warmup exercises, including playing fast tunes on right, then left, then both together. I'm finding my left hand fingering is getting quicker, but moving my little finger from, say, the 3rd row to the first, is still too slow.

 

@luli I found Judy Hawkins' early tutorials threads useful:
https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/15414-hayden-tutorial-wheeeeee/
There are 11 of them I think. My 'finger warmup' tunes come from those. (On my printed score of 'Swinging on a gate' from #4 I wrote 'tricky fingering!')

 

 

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1 hour ago, DaveRo said:

我去年开始演奏斯塔吉·海登。在右边,我主要用我的前三个手指弹奏。我演奏的大多数早期作品都是G调的,因为我经常移调它们。如果一个是C调,我把整个手移到左边。

 

但是左手指法呢?当我开始的时候,我选择用左手的小指操作最左边的按钮——我用食指操作右边的按钮。(那是弹a的时候a的配乐伴奏,不是和弦。)这似乎是合乎逻辑的事情。一年后,有了一只孔雀,我开始怀疑这是否是一个好的决定,部分是通过阅读这里的一些帖子。但那时我已经习惯了,所以我坚持了下来。我通常会先做一些手指热身练习,包括先弹右首,再弹左首,然后一起弹。我发现我的左手指法越来越快了,但是把我的小指从第三排移到第一排,还是太慢了。

 

@luli我发现Judy Hawkins早期的教程线程很有用:
https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/15414-Hayden-tutorial-wheeeeee/
我想有11个。我的“手指热身”曲子就是来自这些。(在我打印的第四首《在门上荡秋千》的乐谱上,我写了‘巧妙的指法!’)

 

 

thank for your suggestion.

My goal is to play music that is not too difficult directly after some practice. Through your experience, it seems necessary to follow a fixed fingering division of labor.

 

 

Edited by luli
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Well, I start off with a new piece with a 'fixed', or rather 'default' idea of how to finger it. In learning it I have to adapt - especially when trying to avoid using the same finger on consecutive notes.

 

(I hope the translation of my post into Chinese is better than Google's translation back into English. 'Tricky' becomes 'fantastic' - though I'm not sure in what sense!)

Edited by DaveRo
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1 hour ago, DaveRo said:

嗯,我用一个“固定的”,或者更确切地说是“默认的”手指弹奏方法开始一首新曲子。在学习的过程中,我必须适应——尤其是当我试图避免在连续的音符上使用同一个手指时。

 

(希望我的帖子翻译成中文比谷歌翻译回英文好。“棘手的”变成了“奇妙的”——虽然我不知道在什么意义上!)

thx,i will change it

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12 hours ago, David Barnert said:

在几乎任何常见的大调中,许多海登演奏者都会用中指开始音阶,演奏音阶(在您的乐谱中)为M R CH / I M R CH/ M。这是一个很好的习惯,尽管说实话,演奏海登35年来,我养成了用I指开始大调音阶的习惯,即使这意味着我的无名指从第六音符滑到第七音符。对我有用。

thanks a lot,is there any tutor about hayden duet?i find that just a chart about the concertina is not enough.

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41 minutes ago, luli said:

is there any tutor about hayden duet?

 

@DaveRo mentioned @judyhawkins’s tutorials here on concertina.net, above. Here are links to all eleven chapters:

 

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/15414-hayden-tutorial-wheeeeee/

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/15427-hayden-tutorial-chapter-two/

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/15475-hayden-tutorial-chapter-3/

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/15513-hayden-tutorial-chapter-four/

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/15545-hayden-tutorial-chapter-5/

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/15600-hayden-tutorial-chapter-6/

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/15617-hayden-tutorial-chapter-seven/

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/15709-hayden-tutorial-chapter-8/

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/16040-hayden-tutorial-chapter-9-intervals-i/

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/16085-hayden-tutorial-chapter-10-intervals-ii/

https://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?/topic/16276-hayden-tutorial-chapter-11/


In addition, note Brian Hayden (@inventor)’s comment in the first chapter.

 

The “ ‘Maccann Duet’ site” he refers to is here. Any of the articles linked from that page by Brian Hayden will be worthwhile reading.

 

Also, note my comment, also in the first chapter. I said (nine and a half years ago) pretty much the same thing as I said earlier in this thread.

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From my perspective, fixed finger designations don’t really work on a Hayden, even if you do as Don suggests, that is to fix on scale steps instead of notes. Scale structure with two rows, minor and major chords that use different fingers on shared steps, distant sharps/flats etc, force you to break from patterns just too often. And if you play fully chromatic pieces, you will find yourself playing variations of nearly same phrases with completely different fingerings, just to be able to stretch that pinky or index finger to reach an odd accidental. It is way better to train your fingers for common short phrases or passes and generally to think about intervals as geometric relationships between buttons, as this is how the layout is constructed. That way, it stops being about which finger go on which note, but what shapes you have to follow, with any finger that feels natural at the moment. 

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22 hours ago, David Barnert said:

a pedal tone on the left hand.

David, could you please elaborate on this.  Do you mean a sustained bass note, probably a chord root note, with the pinkie while playing other notes with the remaining fingers?  If so then I just tried this and I can see it working some (maybe most) of the time but for minor chords my fingers get crossed!

 

I remember Brian Hayden saying something about training his little finger to play bass notes, I wonder if this is what he was talking about.

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12 hours ago, Don Taylor said:

David, could you please elaborate on this.  Do you mean a sustained bass note, probably a chord root note, with the pinkie while playing other notes with the remaining fingers?

 

Yes. Of course it only works in keys where it is convenient to play a pedal tone near the lower left corner of the array.

 

Here, for instance, is how I play the Morris tune, “Jumping and Dashing” (Ducklington-style dance developed in Strong, Maine), note the first 2 measures of the 3rd line:

 

X:1
T:Jumping & Dashing
M:6/8
K:G
V:1
D|G2GG2D|G2GG2A|B2AB2G|D3-D2B|
V:2 clef=-8 middle=B,
z|[G,2D2][CE][B,2D2]z|[G,2D2][CE][B,2D2][D,A,]|[G,2D2]zG,2D|G,3[B,2D2]z|
V:1
c2cA2c|B3G2B|cBAd2d|G3-[G2D2]||[GB]|
V:2
[A,3E3]D2F|G,2F,[E,2B,2]z|[A,2E2][A,E]D2[FA]|G,3-[G,2B,2D2]||z|
V:1
A2AA2B|c2A FDF|G2DG2[GB]|[d3-G3]d2B|
V:2
[D,2-F2][D,-F][D,2-F2][D,G]|[D,2-A2][D,-F][D,2-D2][D,C]|B,2G,B,2D|z3[B,3D3]|
V:1
c2cA2c|B3G2B|cBAd2d|G3-G2||
V:2
[A,3E3]D2F|G,2F,[E,2B,2]z|[A,2E2][A,E]D2[FA]|G,3-[G,2B,2D2]||

 

It’s a corner-crossing dance, so it’s 3x(ABBB) with slows on the 3rd chorus, and I’ve left all that out, but the pedal tone is there.

Edited by David Barnert
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