Irish History

[Rhomylly]

I find it a little curious, though, that Rhomylly noticed Sinéad O'Connor's anger, but apparently didn't take a hint from the very different tune that the words might also be different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Like I said Jim, I'm a little slow sometimes

[JimLucas]

Point of order:

Does Jim's response as quoted in my previous message above say 9:16am and my original say 10:02am to any of you? Is this a time warp? Wonder what'll happen with this message?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It does say that, and I think I can explain it, though I won't try to justify it (nor am I responsible for it ):

 

When someone quotes a message, it is timestamped with the actual time of posting expressed in "user's local time". But once quoted, the timestamp becomes fixed as part of the quoted "text", and doesn't get adjusted for local time when it is displayed, the way the primary timestamps on direct posts (including those that include the quote) are. If you look at your original message and my response, I think you'll find that they're respectively timestamped 9:02 am and 9:16 am. But I see the times as 10:02 am and 10:16 am, since my time zone is an hour ahead of yours.

 

When I quoted you, the quote was stamped with my local version of your posting time, i.e., 10:02 am. Then when you quoted me, that quote was stamped with your local version of my posting time, i.e., 9:16 am, but the "10:02 am" timestamp -- which had become part of the quoted text -- was not altered.

 

Such is life in the computer age.

[Mark Evans]

I'm a little slow sometimes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Would never call you slow...thoughtful, yes and it would seem brought up a very spicy subject which in true C. Net fashion is in the midst of being "hashed out".

 

A little history never hurt anyone. Enjoy. For me Foggy Dew will always be a love song, 'cause that's what I wanna sing about.

 

Now let's get back to the "hashin' out"! Where's me pint?

Edited June 24, 2005 by Mark Evans

[JimLucas]

I don't know what axe SO'C was trying to grind here,...

Apparently not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, foroverly pedantic Jim:

Flattery will get you nowhere.

Meanwhile, I was simply making an observation, not a criticism.

 

Rhomylly connected the two versions as being one in the first post of this thread. (Oh no she didn't - oh yes she did- but please! lets not get into that waste of bandwidth - that's how I read it).

I'm not going to argue "she did/didn't", either. But I definitely read it differently. What I understood her to say is that she had assumed -- without listening to the words -- that the two were the same, but discovered -- when she did pay attention to the words -- that it wasn't... that it was a song about the Easter Rebellion.

 

...your ... knowledge of this screaming angst stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My "knowledge" is simply that I'm familiar with a song well-known in Irish communities as "The Foggy Dew", and that it is a song about the armed Easter Rebellion against what was viewed by the rebels as an occupying power. Not all that different -- to those who feel oppressed -- from a French song of resistance against the Nazi occupation. And ample reason to sound angry, I would think.

 

That's the "axe" that you said you didn't know about, that I agreed you apparently didn't, and which I was apparently unsuccessful in explaining.

 

I expect that John Bell's "Foggy Dew" is the English folk song "of love and seduction", which is completely different from the Irish song of the same name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John Bell's is the "love and seduction", but "completely different from the Irish song of the same name" it isn't. ...I was sure I'd heard Irish 'Foggy Dews' in the same genre.... Turns out this song is well known in England and Ireland, even recorded by Irish tenor John McCormack in 1913 as part of an "Irish" song series (3 years prior to the Easter Uprising).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't doubt that, and it doesn't surprise me. The Irish have long had a talent for adopting songs from England and elsewhere, and making them their own. And I probably should have realized/assumed that there would also be an Irish version of John Bell's song, and so I shouldn't have said "the Irish song of the same name", but something like "the song better known in Ireland by the same name". I apologize for not doing so, and thus for not more clearly distinguishing the two. But in my experience, it's a rare Irish(wo)man who doesn't immediately think of the song about the Easter Uprising when someone mentions "The Foggy Dew". It's been recorded by The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem, by The Dubliners, and by The Wolf Tones, among others. As far as I know, none of those groups have recorded the earlier song, though I don't know that they haven't.

 

By the way, variants of the John Bell "Foggy Dew" (or "Foggy, Foggy Dew") are also known as American, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear of Australian versions. I know of two common tunes for it, but neither resembles the Irish air which goes by that name these days (though most likely that tune previously had other names, maybe even Gaelic ones).

 

I hope I've managed to be clearer this time.

[JimLucas]

Point of order:

Does Jim's response as quoted in my previous message above say 9:16am and my original say 10:02am to any of you? Is this a time warp?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You think that's bad?

On this web page I discovered the following two quotes:

"These lyrics deal with the Irish Easter Uprising of 1916."

and

"It was recorded in 1913 by John McCormack."

They appear to refer to the same song/words.

 

MORAL: Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

... Waitaminit! You're reading this on the internet.

Ah, but I said, "Don't believe everything," not, "Disbelieve everything."

[Stephen Chambers]

... you dont need to have driven a shovel in a turf field to be able to play Irish jigs, reels and polkas with some feeling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Though it might sometimes be handy to know that which foot you apply to the spade when digging can be considered politically sensitive !

 

There is a belief, originating in Ulster, that traditionally Roman Catholics would use a slane (turf spade) with a step to the left of the shaft, requiring them to use the left foot to push the spade into the turf, while Protestants used a slane with its step to the right, so a Catholic might be referred to as a "left-footer" and a Protestant as a "right-footer".

 

So if an Irishman asks you which foot you dig with, he is really asking your religion ...

Edited June 30, 2005 by Stephen Chambers

[geoffwright]

Politically sensitive? Hmm.... it can't be discussed, can it?

[Mark Evans]

...a Catholic might be referred to as a "left-footer" and a Protestant as a "right-footer".

 

So if an Irishman asks you which foot you dig with, he is really asking your religion ...  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I like this very much. Now can anyone tell me if there is a response for a reborn Pagan?

Edited June 30, 2005 by Mark Evans

[spindizzy]

...a Catholic might be referred to as a "left-footer" and a Protestant as a "right-footer".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmm.. from my days in a very sectarian part of Glasgow, I'd always thought the footedness was to do with footbal rather than turf.

 

I like this very much.  Now can anyone tell me if there is a response for a reborn Pagan?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The standard reply to this depends on whether you're a catholic pagan or a protestant pagan.

(Apologies for rehashing a VERY old joke!)

 

Chris J

[Stephen Chambers]

...a Catholic might be referred to as a "left-footer" and a Protestant as a "right-footer".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm.. from my days in a very sectarian part of Glasgow, I'd always thought the footedness was to do with football rather than turf.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it even goes back before the Celtic/Rangers rivalry.

 

 

I like this very much.  Now can anyone tell me if there is a response for a reborn Pagan?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jump in with both feet ?

[geoffwright]

Now can anyone tell me if there is a response for a reborn Pagan?

To be sure, would that be an O'Pagan?

[Mark Evans]

[

would that be an O'Pagan?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I would prefer MacPagan if ye please kind sir and I suppose I'd be a left leanin' double footer .

[bellowbelle]

...

 

....There is a belief, originating in Ulster, that traditionally Roman Catholics would use a slane (turf spade) with a step to the left of the shaft, requiring them to use the left foot to push the spade into the turf, while Protestants used a slane with its step to the right, so a Catholic might be referred to as a "left-footer" and a Protestant as a "right-footer".

 

So if an Irishman asks you which foot you dig with, he is really asking your religion ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.

 

Just today, I caught some of 'A Celtic Sojourn' on WGBH Boston radio, and featured was the singing of John Harte, who passed away just recently. I'd never heard him before, but I really enjoyed his singing. In a recording of a concert some time back, he mentioned how you could tell someone's religion or political persuasion (in Ireland/UK, I guess) simply by their first name. He gave examples but the only ones I can really recall are 'Iris' versus 'Brigette,' etc... (which, by the way, was a nice reminder that I need to trim down my garden patch of irises soon...)

 

Anyway, while there's no outward, violent war between the Protestants and the Catholics going on here in the USA like it is elsewhere, in my own life I've dealt with my own share of 'awkwardness' or whatever, over the whole thing. (I figure it must be one of those 'life lessons,' or whatever.)

 

I was...well, we weren't really protestant, because we were Baptist (..and, note, that's a broad term -- there are wide varieties, and we were NOT affiliated with those rude, hateful warmonger Baptists that have been in the news here lately for crashing funerals with protest demonstrations)...but, basically, 'Baptist' is a protestant curiosity.

 

Anyway, though neither of my parents had to grow up being highlighted as 'the different one,' they kind of did that to me (not intending harm, I'm sure) by being very active in their religious involvement, and not really taking note that our town was very Catholic and I went to school with maybe only one other Protestant (who wasn't even Baptist).

 

Most of my school teachers and just about anyone I had anything to do with, were Catholic. My best friend at school (in second grade) was worried that her grandmother would find out that I wasn't Catholic, so she asked me not to 'let it slip' when we had to go visit her one day -- even gave me lessons on how to bless myself in front of the cross, if her grandmother had one out. (I was so afraid she would have them all over, and we'd have to spend all our play time blessing ourselves!) We couldn't have cared less about our affiliations, we just wanted to have fun.

 

When, at about 19 years of age, I moved to an area more like the 'Bible Belt' in the USA, I was surrounded by Protestants. (I'm so politically aware, I think that was the first time I realized that they were actually the majority!) It was a bit nice to not have to feel like 'other' all the time, but, really.....I still WAS 'other.' I didn't grow up around those people, and I didn't really feel much preference for them.

 

Long story short.....? Gee, it's hard to make this short...

 

Okay, well, the point is, out of it all, I've dealt with my own personal, philosophical and religious battles enough that, when I do see or hear news about the clash between the two major religions, I feel like I've already fought and won it. (I KNOW the issue is not that simple or trite, and is not all about theology....my apologies if I sound smug, don't mean to). They seem butter-battley to me.

 

I don't go to a church, now, and I just try to accept and love people as people -- I often tend to think of us as all just students in a great big school. God loves us all.

 

edited...sorry, don't know what I did to the 'quote.'

Edited July 2, 2005 by bellowbelle

[Rhomylly]

LOL, Mark, but I think we reborn Pagans would probably use a high-tech tractor!

 

Thinking back to one of my original comments that I automatically assumed the two widely divergent versions of Foggy Dew (sexual seduction vs. Easter Uprising) were the same for so long, I realized that it is normal for me, at least, to know several variants (tune, and to some degree, lyrics) of the same song, having grown up in the Appalachian mountains listening to English folk music.

 

To date, I know

 

2 versions of Darby Ram, 3 if you count the one with risque lyrics

2 versions of Golden Vanity

2 versions of John Barleycorn

3 versions of Black Jack Davey/Gypsy Rover

5, count them, 5 versions of Froggy Went A'Courting

 

And that doesn't even begin to cover all the variants on The Holly and the Ivy and wassailing songs.

 

And, of course, being completely ignorant of 20th century Irish history, and the fact that I can never understand a word Sinead O'Connor sings anyway (I am the Queen of Mondegreens (misunderstood song lyrics), just ask my husband), well, hopefully this makes my confusion a little more understandable.

 

Edited to get rid of useless italicizing

Edited July 2, 2005 by Rhomylly

[JimLucas]

So if an Irishman asks you which foot you dig with, he is really asking your religion ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...I went to school with maybe only one other Protestant (who wasn't even Baptist).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Reminds me of a friend's story about her brother: Their family moved into a new town/neighborhood/school, and on T's first day in the new school he was confronted by two groups of classmates, who demanded to know whether he was Irish or Jewish. Clearly, in their minds/society, those were the only options, and after brief consideration, T said, "Jewish". He didn't really know what it meant, but he knew for sure that he was not Irish.

[JimLucas]

2 versions of Darby Ram, 3 if you count the one with risque lyrics

The one with risque lyrics?

Berea must be even more sheltered than I thought!

 

2 versions of Golden Vanity

2 versions of John Barleycorn

3 versions of Black Jack Davey/Gypsy Rover

5, count them, 5 versions of Froggy Went A'Courting

Are these the number of versions you sing, or have you only heard so few. Of versions I've encountered, I'd say there are at least half a dozen of each of those songs, a dozen or more of Darby Ram. I love the variety.

 

...we reborn Pagans...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I recall, pagans get reborn as home-brewed ale.

... Well, at least John Barleycorn did.

[Helen]

So, Stephen, when one puts one's foot in one's mouth, which foot depends on one's religious leanings, so to speak?

[Rhomylly]

2 versions of Darby Ram, 3 if you count the one with risque lyrics

The one with risque lyrics?

Berea must be even more sheltered than I thought!

 

Jim, you don't know the half of it!

 

2 versions of Golden Vanity

2 versions of John Barleycorn

3 versions of Black Jack Davey/Gypsy Rover

5, count them, 5 versions of Froggy Went A'Courting

Are these the number of versions you sing, or have you only heard so few. Of versions I've encountered, I'd say there are at least half a dozen of each of those songs, a dozen or more of Darby Ram. I love the variety.

 

Versions I sing, when pressed to do so.

 

...we reborn Pagans...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I recall, pagans get reborn as home-brewed ale.

... Well, at least John Barleycorn did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Only when we're really lucky