Hearing Ghost note when pushing in air button by itself??

[richard]

Hi

 

When I use the air button (on an Anglo Ab/Eb) with a little bit of extra force/speed pushing the bellows I can hear a note playing faintly. I replaced the valve for the (push) note that I hear and it did not stop that reed from faintly sounding while pushing in the air button. 

 

I just assume it is a valve issue. 

 

Does anyone have any experience with this problem?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

[Milesy]

What make of concertina is it? I have had to fix a similar issue on a Lachenal. There was a tiny leak around the reed pan gasket on that occasion.

 

[Theo]

It's very unlikely to be a valve.  Much more likely to be an internal air leak around the edge of the reedpan as described above by Milsey.  Check for for a gap between reed pan and bellows frame and check that the top of the reed pan is flush with the top of the bellows frame caused by the blocks supporting the reed pan being loose or too low.  This is very common.  Could also be missing gasket on top of a chamber wall, or even, much less likely, a crack in the reed pan.

[richard]

Golly, thanks for all the reasonable solutions. I'm on it!

 

Richard

[Tradewinds Ted]

Theo has FAR MORE experience fixing these than I do, but I have a couple things to add which I've had cause ghost notes like this:

1) possibly a weak spring, so the pad doesn't quite hold air.

2) a gasket on top of a chamber wall which isn't missing but just doesn't quite seal because it is too compressed and dried out.  I had that one winter from dry air, when a ghost note appeared after I found out too late that there was a heating vent near my spot at a session one cold winter day.  Solved it at home by VERY cautiously dampening the gaskets around that chamber until they swelled back up to former thickness.  Not really enough difference to see, but the ghost note didn't return after a couple applications.

[Richard Mellish]

Does the note sound at all when you don't use the air button? That should narrow down the possible causes.

[richard]

Hi friends

 

I checked for leaks in the chamois gaskets and edge of the pan and did not find any. I roughed up the chamois where I thought it might need it. I double checked the firmness of the reed in the slot.

 

I still have the ghost note.

 

Richard...It does not sound when I just push the bellows together. It only sounds in conjunction with the air button and forceful push.

 

FYI...In normal playing this is not an issue. It is only once in a while when I use the air button with a bit stronger/faster push.

 

CRAZY IDEA: Could I need to enlarge the air hole on the reed pan????

 

Any more notions?

 

Thanks,

Richard

[Alex West]

It sounds as though it could be a weak spring or other incomplete sealing of the pad into that particular chamber as Ted has suggested.

 

Alex West

[alex_holden]

11 hours ago, richard said:

Richard...It does not sound when I just push the bellows together. It only sounds in conjunction with the air button and forceful push.

 

Check if anything happens in the action box when you press the air button that could nudge the pad/lever/spring of the ghost note.

[Richard Mellish]

5 hours ago, Alex West said:

It sounds as though it could be a weak spring or other incomplete sealing of the pad into that particular chamber as Ted has suggested.

 

Alex West

If that were the cause, surely it would happen more when the air button is not used.

[Alex West]

True - I missed that crucial clue.  That would indicate communication between the air button chamber and the (presumably adjacent?) chamber where the ghost note is?

 

Alex West

[d.elliott]

Use a tuner to see if you can identify the note that is sounding, are we talking a radial reed pan, or a square layout?

[richard]

Hi David

I have identified the note. There are two reeds of that note, one on the push and one on the pull. I assume it is the reed in the interior as it is on the push that the note sounds. 

 

That is the reed that I replaced the valve for and ruffed up the nap of the chamois adjacent to it.

 

I guess one would call the reed pan a square layout.

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

Edited October 15, 2022 by richard

[d.elliott]

Yes, a square layout. Which chamber holds the errant reed? and is it adjacent to the air release pad hole? can you indicate on your photo?

[richard]

Hi Dave 

 

I haven't yet had time to go back into the reed pan yet...But are you suggesting that if the sounding reed is close to the air button pad the there could be a leak between those two areas? Would the problem theoretically be caused by a leak in the chamois gasket between the two areas? So I would need to ruff up more the suede?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

[Wally Carroll]

Richard,

does this happen only when a particular push note is played in conjunction with the air button, or when any push note is played with the air button?  Also, does the ghost note sound the whole time you are playing the note or only at the start when the intended note first starts to sound?

Edited October 27, 2022 by Wally Carroll
correct a typo

[richard]

Hi Wally

 

I happens when I am only pushing the air button to close the bellows while playing when the two ends are a bit too far apart. It really only happens when I push with some force. It is more of a rare annoyance not a constant issue. I wonder if enlarging the air-hole in the pan a small bit to reduce the pressure and force needed when just useing the air button.

 

Any insight into enlarging air-holes in the reed pan?

 

Thanks,

Richard

[Alan Day]

My thoughts were exactly the same as Alex Holden ,that when you push the air button it interferes with the valve next to it ,or even that the spring moves around a bit and lifts up the adjacent lever. Some good advice here it will be one of the ones suggested.

Al