40-button anglo players: which buttons could you do without?

[Luke Hillman]

Hi folks,

 

I'm currently in that long waiting period after getting my name onto some makers' waitlists, where I get to agonize over and second-guess all my prior assumptions about what I want. I've played a 30-button anglo for a few years, more or less harmonically, and definitely want more buttons. My main repertoire is heavily Morris-oriented, but I like to branch out when I have the bandwidth into more contemporary dance tunes and occasionally classical baroque stuff.

 

Several makers currently are only set up to build instruments with a max of 38 buttons. This works well if you play a Jeffries system, but I'm a Wheatstone guy. So my question to 40-button players: if you were going to lose two buttons on the right-hand side, which ones would they be? Recombining notes is ok -- to use the C/G layout as an example, I know I'd want to keep the pull D6 but I wouldn't have any use for the push C7.

 

Any and all advice gratefully received.

 

 

 

[Richard Mellish]

Thank you for raising an interesting question. I have played 40-button Wheatstone system for nearly 40 years, and when I pick up an Anglo of any other arrangement I very soon find myself missing some notes. That applies even to one of mine where I requested a different note in one position for what seemed a good reason at the time.

However I certainly use some of the additional (above a 30-button Wheatstone) buttons a lot more than others.

 

I mostly play a G-D. I seldom use the buttons corresponding to Bb5/G#5 and D#5/A4 on the C-G but at one point in one tune I play an arpeggio which would be C5, E5, G5, Bb5 on a C-G.

 

As suggested on your chart, I use the note coresponding to D6 but seldom or never the one corresponding to C7. (And on a C-G that would be even higher and squeakier.)

 

I use the button corresponding to D5/E5 a lot on push for a scale run C,D,E etc. I'm not sure how often I use that button on pull, but it certainly can be used for a scale run A,B,C,D,E,F#,G all on pull.

 

A lot may depend on what you might want extra buttons for. I use them to minimise bellows direction changes, playing notes in the opposite direction from usual; but I seldom stray beyond the two basic keys, and never more than one key away, i.e. F or D on a C-G. You might be more interested in playing a wider range of keys.

[Aaron Bittel]

Yes, an interesting question! Here's my take.

 

Initially, I limited myself to playing the core 30 buttons on my 40-button, but in the past few years I've really tried to push myself to get familiar with the entire keyboard, by playing in different keys, playing more chromatic music, exploring all sorts of complex harmonies. That said, the two buttons I pretty much never find any use for are those two bottom buttons on the right hand, hanging out by themselves.

 

I would use the push D#5, except that on my instrument that note is repeated in place of the push F#5 on the top row -- which I only recently realized is non-standard, but turns out to be really handy. Kind of a little Jeffries-ization of an otherwise standard Wheatstone layout.

 

I do sometimes wish I had that push F#5 somewhere, although I manage to get by without it. I've thought of having one put in where the D#5 is on the bottom button, effectively swapping those two notes from the standard layout. Otherwise, I don't have much need for a third pull A4, or a second push D5/pull E5, both in places that are hard to reach. But then I'm totally happy to have the melody bouncing back and forth between hands and work my accompaniment around that. If I played in a strictly right hand melody/left hand accompaniment way, I might feel differently about it.

 

Like both of you, I wouldn't want to lose the pull D6. Believe it or not, I've occasionally found a use for the push C7, but I can't say I'd miss it that much if I didn't have it.

 

I didn't use Bb5/G#5 all that much until recently, but now that I'm spending more time exploring the flat keys I find it kind of essential.

 

So, I think my use case is sort of the inverse of Richard's... I like to play in lots of keys (or at least try to, can't say that I'm that good at it yet), but I'm not that concerned with minimizing bellows changes. And so in that case, I could easily lose the two bottom buttons.

 

- Aaron

Edited September 25, 2022 by Aaron Bittel
After all these years of having two hands, I apparently still can't tell which is right and which is left.

[Jesse Smith]

I am very new at this (started on the Anglo last month), but I can already tell you that unlike Aaron I find the right-hand G4 and A4 incredibly handy to have, so that I can play the run from G up to C all on the right hand while saving the left hand for bass and chord accompaniment. (I play English/harmonic style.) The pull D6 is useful, and the C7 is not at all common in tunes but it's a note you wouldn't otherwise have at all and seems like it will be useful to be able to go all the way up and finish the scale in C. The other extra buttons I don't think I have found use for yet, but as I said I am very new to the concertina.

[Clive Thorne]

19 hours ago, Jesse Smith said:

I am very new at this (started on the Anglo last month), but I can already tell you that unlike Aaron I find the right-hand G4 and A4 incredibly handy to have, so that I can play the run from G up to C all on the right hand while saving the left hand for bass and chord accompaniment. (I play English/harmonic style.) The pull D6 is useful, and the C7 is not at all common in tunes but it's a note you wouldn't otherwise have at all and seems like it will be useful to be able to go all the way up and finish the scale in C. The other extra buttons I don't think I have found use for yet, but as I said I am very new to the concertina.

I have a 36 key that does not have the G/A overlap onto the right hand, and I really wish it did! SO I'd definitely keep that one.

 

Also that top C does seem rather high to get used very often,  I don't think I've ever missed that.

 

[hjcjones]

It's not as simple as deciding which notes you'd like.  If they're from the buttons you'll lose you also to think about where else on the keyboard you're going to put them and which other notes you're willing to sacrifice in order to make room for them. 

 

If you what you really want is a Wheatstone 40-button, I wonder whether it's really sensible to spend a lot of money on a 38-button which, no matter how good an instrument it is, will always fall slightly short.  Perhaps you should restrict yourself to those makers who do offer a 40-button layout, even if you have to wait longer or pay more.  Or perhaps look around for a vintage 40-button.

[Clive Thorne]

Wolverton concertinas (UK) do a 40 key CG (but not GD). For £5900 (Cheap to buy from the UK at the moment!).

I've never seen one in the flesh, but JK speaks very highly of them.

[adrian brown]

Hi Luke,

 

Thanks for your interesting question which made me ponder how things would be the other way around - which notes (and buttons) I would miss, and what would be the potential gains, if I swapped my Jeffries layout for a Wheatstone 40? 

 

In terms of gains, it’s clear that the RH G4 is a great addition, allowing you to play melody runs down to G4 on the right hand side. That said, G4 is normally part of the chord you’d be playing on the LH, so it’s not as crucial as say, having the A4 on the RH.

 

I personally find the C4/C4 LH thumb button combination a bit of a waste - both on Jeffiries and Wheatstone layouts. I’d have the push tuned to an F4, which is far more useful. (Push C4 is of course already on button 3 and if you want to do a sort of drony LH thing, it’s simple enough to swap between button 3 and the thumb button.)

 

However, the two things I would miss the most are the RH pull C5 - I can’t understand why that’s not there, and of course the low D3, which on my layout is where your Bb3 is - my Bb3 being at the end go the middle row. It’s true D3 is not part of the standard Jeffries 38 layout, but because there is room for it, it’s an easy modification and gives you mighty chords when playing in Dm and DMaj. 

 

On my RH button 10, I normally have a pull G#5, but on some occasions, I’ll swap this reed in advance for a D#6, because a few pieces I’ve played need it. On the custom Baritone Colin and Rosalie Dipper made for me, they squeezed in an extra button nearby so I could have both... 

 

One last comment - have you considered a Jeffries layout with a Wheatstone RH accidental row? I’ve seen a lot of instruments that have had this conversion, in both 30 and 38 button versions, and it might be that an hybrid layout of this sort would work best for you?

 

Cheers,

 

Adrian 

[Luke Hillman]

Thank you all for indulging my curiosity.

 

Amusingly enough, @Clive Thorne, I'm on Wolverton's waitlist (having tested a couple, I can confirm they are top notch instruments), but really hoping for my next concertina to be a G/D! That said, I'll still have need of a C/G, so perhaps the way to go is a 40b Wolverton and a G/D from one of the other makers. Unfortunately, it seems everyone who's making 40b G/D instruments these days makes them octagonal, and I do so prefer hexagons. Life is full of compromises.

 

On 9/23/2022 at 12:12 PM, Richard Mellish said:

A lot may depend on what you might want extra buttons for. I use them to minimise bellows direction changes, playing notes in the opposite direction from usual; but I seldom stray beyond the two basic keys, and never more than one key away, i.e. F or D on a C-G. You might be more interested in playing a wider range of keys.

 

In my case... little of Column A, little of Column B. For the most part I'm happy to play tunes in whatever key is most comfortable on the instrument, and mostly just want the bellows options, but lately I've been playing with some complicated Russian waltzes that have half-step key changes—impossible on my current instrument.

 

On 9/24/2022 at 8:31 PM, Aaron Bittel said:

I didn't use Bb5/G#5 all that much until recently, but now that I'm spending more time exploring the flat keys I find it kind of essential.

 

Ooh. Yes. I play a lot of tunes in F on my current 30b C/G, and I think that reversal would probably be quite useful for my repertoire.

 

On 9/27/2022 at 11:56 AM, hjcjones said:

If you what you really want is a Wheatstone 40-button [...]

I don't have a well-defined sense of what I "really want". From experience I know that I'll adapt to whatever I've got—to a point—though I'll probably always be wanting more buttons. But I suppose at some point the weight will start to become tiresome.

 

@adrian brown aha, good point about the RH pull C5. I'm so used to not having it on my 30b that its absence on the 40b layout escaped my notice. And a D3 on the LH side would be stellar! The lack of a full chromatic complement of low notes is always something I've found lamentable, but I keep reminding myself the alternative is a CBA, and this hobby is expensive enough. I haven't really considered Wheatstone accidentals on an otherwise Jeffries layout... you mean like this? (I also swapped the pull F6 on the bottom button for the D6 that otherwise would have been in the accidental row).

 

I seem to remember a giant thread of Jeffries layouts that I'm having trouble finding at the moment where @cohen had done a Wheatstone accidental row... but then, his concertina has a ridiculous number of buttons.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Luke Hillman

[Martin Essery]

On 10/18/2022 at 7:15 PM, Luke Hillman said:

Thank you all for indulging my curiosity.

 

Amusingly enough, @Clive Thorne, I'm on Wolverton's waitlist (having tested a couple, I can confirm they are top notch instruments), but really hoping for my next concertina to be a G/D! That said, I'll still have need of a C/G, so perhaps the way to go is a 40b Wolverton and a G/D from one of the other makers. Unfortunately, it seems everyone who's making 40b G/D instruments these days makes them octagonal, and I do so prefer hexagons. Life is full of compromises.

 

 

In my case... little of Column A, little of Column B. For the most part I'm happy to play tunes in whatever key is most comfortable on the instrument, and mostly just want the bellows options, but lately I've been playing with some complicated Russian waltzes that have half-step key changes—impossible on my current instrument.

 

 

Ooh. Yes. I play a lot of tunes in F on my current 30b C/G, and I think that reversal would probably be quite useful for my repertoire.

 

I don't have a well-defined sense of what I "really want". From experience I know that I'll adapt to whatever I've got—to a point—though I'll probably always be wanting more buttons. But I suppose at some point the weight will start to become tiresome.

 

@adrian brown aha, good point about the RH pull C5. I'm so used to not having it on my 30b that its absence on the 40b layout escaped my notice. And a D3 on the LH side would be stellar! The lack of a full chromatic complement of low notes is always something I've found lamentable, but I keep reminding myself the alternative is a CBA, and this hobby is expensive enough. I haven't really considered Wheatstone accidentals on an otherwise Jeffries layout... you mean like this? (I also swapped the pull F6 on the bottom button for the D6 that otherwise would have been in the accidental row).

 

I seem to remember a giant thread of Jeffries layouts that I'm having trouble finding at the moment where @cohen had done a Wheatstone accidental row... but then, his concertina has a ridiculous number of buttons.

 

 

I spent ages studying your button layout, imagining playing music and finger patterns for chords, and found myself wondering why the Bb4 drone when there is a perfectly reasonable pull Bb4 right next door? A pull G#4 in that position would be useful for me. Hey ho, there is no one right concertina for everyone.

[Martin Essery]

There is not one concertina that can be right for all music for all people. This thread shows how personal a choice it is. For me, my logical, and musical sense of completeness says there should be a D3 in that yawning gap at the bottom, and a C instrument just seems incomplete without a top C7. Yes, it is ear piercing, but the top note of any treble instrument is! Only yesterday I tried some classical music that required the top C, but not having it, I tried an octave lower but was missing the bottom D, and some low accidentals, so I ended up transposing to G which gave me some clumsy fingering.

 

I do not mind melody and harmony crossing over from hand to hand. I play mostly classical, and, say for a violin sonata, the chord is often spread across both hands anyway, and the melodies are often wider than folk tunes, meaning it often strays all the way to the bottom of the left hand. There is a cello piece I am stuck on because I can play all but one chord, A4, F5, D6. I so need that push F5!

My conflict would be between melody and harmony. Melodically I need more chromatics, and many 40 button layouts do not change that, and harmony needs more push pull pairs. I suppose the one reaching its logical conclusion with the English and the other with the Duet type, but the bisonic reeds give the music a different quality 🙂

[Luke Hillman]

11 minutes ago, Martin Essery said:

I spent ages studying your button layout, imagining playing music and finger patterns for chords, and found myself wondering why the Bb4 drone when there is a perfectly reasonable pull Bb4 right next door? A pull G#4 in that position would be useful for me. Hey ho, there is no one right concertina for everyone.

 

I've always wondered this about the Jeffries layout myself. The "standard" layout I've seen, if it can be called that, has a C drone as well. I figured there was some unexpected style advantage to having the B4 drone there, but it does seem a waste on a 38-button instrument to a casual observer. @adrian brown, did you keep the Bb4 drone on your layout?

 

Unrelatedly, having gone through a lot of layout threads here recently, I wonder why it seems like a more or less accepted convention to refer to "40-button Wheatstone" layouts (excluding the air button) and "39-button Jeffries" (including the air button). Anybody know? 🤷‍♂️

[adrian brown]

5 hours ago, Luke Hillman said:

 

I've always wondered this about the Jeffries layout myself. The "standard" layout I've seen, if it can be called that, has a C drone as well. I figured there was some unexpected style advantage to having the B4 drone there, but it does seem a waste on a 38-button instrument to a casual observer. @adrian brown, did you keep the Bb4 drone on your layout?

 

Unrelatedly, having gone through a lot of layout threads here recently, I wonder why it seems like a more or less accepted convention to refer to "40-button Wheatstone" layouts (excluding the air button) and "39-button Jeffries" (including the air button). Anybody know? 🤷‍♂️

 

Sorry Luke, Only just seen your question from a while back. No, on the "standard" Jeffries 38 layout, that button has a Bb3 draw/ Bb4 press. The duplicating of Bb3 on button 2a allowed me to change it for a very valuable D3 - this is what I mean: https://anglopiano.com/#layout=_30_eFHdJKNMmn.._160_PQTSstVWZX......_15_cGGIijkLMNnh_80_rNoOqpSRuTwURq..IHjlMNOopqrs_110_poSrUTvuYw1x...._145_Kk_125_Li_220_xv

(BTW What a fantastic tool that is - did you program it?)

 

I believe John Watcham had his duplicate Bb3 swapped for an F#3 as he found that more useful for certain bass runs.

 

Without wishing to sound pedantic, I would avoid using the term "drone" for any unisonic button on the Anglo layout - it's never really a drone because the note cannot be held past the limit of the bellows, and so any combination of other buttons having the same note would create exactly the same effect. (and otherwise all buttons on the English and ˜duet systems could be considered drones 🙂 )

 

Martin, I have no idea why the air button is sometimes counted on the Jeffries layout, but not the Wheatstone - a few years ago, some of us here tried to extend Gary's tablature system in a logical to incorporate both the Jeffries and Wheatstone extended layouts, but as far as I know, they've not been used in any publications, so have yet to find acceptance.

Cheers,

 

Adrian

[Luke Hillman]

11 hours ago, adrian brown said:

No, on the "standard" Jeffries 38 layout, that button has a Bb3 draw/ Bb4 press.

 

A-HA! The chart I was looking at when I built Anglo Piano had a unisonoric button in that position. I've just corrected it in all the hard-coded layouts, which now make much more sense to me. Is there a particular track in your discography that best demonstrates your D3 substitution? F#3 would be wonderful, too...

 

11 hours ago, adrian brown said:

(BTW What a fantastic tool that is - did you program it?)

 

Thank you Yes, that was me.

[adrian brown]

On 11/18/2022 at 8:10 PM, Luke Hillman said:

 

A-HA! The chart I was looking at when I built Anglo Piano had a unisonoric button in that position. I've just corrected it in all the hard-coded layouts, which now make much more sense to me. Is there a particular track in your discography that best demonstrates your D3 substitution? F#3 would be wonderful, too...

 

 

Thank you Yes, that was me.

 

Hi Luke,

I mostly find it useful to give an extra emphasis on the last notes of pieces in D minor or dorian. Here’s a few of them I’ve recorded, the first two are on a standard CG followed by a baritone version:

The Queen's Almain - La Monica
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThMNAL1X3Pk

Belle Qui Tiens Ma Vie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmUAG8mJ_OI

Also this 5-part renaissance composition:
 

Josquin Des Prez - Plusieurs Regretz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSO_Uzs6oZQ

And of course the piece Cohen wrote for me, he didn’t indicate a low finalis but I played it anyway - If you’ve got it, why not flaunt it 🙂
Mr Brown's Gigue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJxjOfeqsEU

I am sure I’ve also used it in the past for a C, D, E, F low bass run, but I can’t remember when.

Cheers,

Adrian 

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I hope I am not imposing my views here too much [as someone that uses a 30 button Anglo system] - but I think that what makes concertinas instruments so unusual is they give great possibilities, whilst at the same time raising a few quandaries.  They provide many advantages over say a solo melodic instrument; in that they can play more than one note at a time, and chords also.  And there's sometimes limits to their range. There is always that one or two notes you wish you had, perhaps, or an upper note you cannot find.  I transpose music when I need to, and do not see this as a downside, instead it is often done by many orchestral standard instruments; to have to rearrange to a more suitable key if required, to fit the particular instrument.  With concertinas being unusual in the way they were developed historically, they have never quite fitted into the standard range of instrument, and uniquely hover between worlds; classical, folk, or whatever.  So, too much music theory being applied to them may occasionally bring up, or highlight little differences, as to how you ideally wish them to be.

See them also as a 'means to an end' - or also a way of making music of any kind, an alternative to piano, guitar, flute, and so on - forgive their little foibles, and get on and play your music.🙂

[Luke Hillman]

12 hours ago, adrian brown said:

I mostly find it useful to give an extra emphasis on the last notes of pieces in D minor or dorian. Here’s a few of them I’ve recorded, the first two are on a standard CG followed by a baritone version

 

Excellent illustrations, thanks Adrian; I can definitely hear the advantage of having the low D, and can already identify a few tunes in my anemic repertoire that would benefit from it. Your baritone has such a beautiful voice!

Edited November 20, 2022 by Luke Hillman

[Luke Hillman]

After a more-or-less careful analysis of my own playing, I think I've mostly figured out a workable system. I figured it was a good idea to start with the tried-and-true Jeffries 38b layout and make slight adjustments. Coming from the Wheatstone layout, the things on the right-hand side I'd really miss if I migrated to a Jeffries system are

• the pull Bb5-A5-G5-F5 run
• the push C#5
• the push A5

The first two are present on Jeffries, but they're shifted to the right by one button relative to Wheatstone, which is maddening. So my solution is to simply shift the accidental row left by one button space, which should be possible since the standard 38b layout has a gap on the top row of both hands. I've also moved the right-most button on the second row of the right-hand side (F5/E5) up to the accidental row to keep it in closer proximity to everything else. I'm calling it the "Jeffstone" layout, and the only thing that will take some getting used to is the lack of a push A5. Adding in Adrian's obviously good modifications yields the "Brownified Jeffstone" layout:

 

I'm not 100% sure this is what I'm going with, but it's a strong contender.

 

---

 

EDIT: Here's a version that should be more comfortable for Wheatstone players.

 

I started with the standard 40b layout, removed the leftmost and rightmost buttons on the top row of the right hand side, and made some slight adjustments to the extended layout notes. The result is a 38-button layout that has the right-hand accidentals that 30b players will already be used to, and has the same notes available in both directions as the 40b layout, MINUS the extremely high push C7, which I figured I'd probably never use.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Luke Hillman