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Jeffries radial reedpan


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451765223_Jeffriesradial2.thumb.jpg.d3c2431aedd81dd2d4f9b36b59f696ba.jpg1597939034_Jeffriesradial3.thumb.jpg.057c1d579ff8202a29bc5e69ff93bef2.jpgHi, I have restored a  C. Jeffires 44 button anglo which unusually, has a radial reedpan. It has a softer sound ie less volume that 

the usual Jeffries and I wonder is this due to the radial layout. The chamber depths are similar to my Jeffries with a parallel

layout viz 9mm LH and 6mm RH (excl chamois). The radial chambers  are smaller in area due to their v shape and I wonder is that why the sound is different.

The reeds are good and react as you'd expect Jeffries reeds to. It has new pads and valves.

It is noticeable that the lower reeds on the LH from middle E/D down have a proper Jeffries growl.

 

I would be glad to receive any views on how does chamber depth and size affect the sound and volume of reeds

jeffries radial 1.jpg

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So many variables to consider when assessing apparent lack of volume, some probably insurmountable without expensive surgery. Others fairly simple to check, such as the thickness and stiffness of the new valves and the amount of lift of the pads. Then there is the extra weight compared with, say, a 30 key, which may require giving a bit more effort to push and pull. And most importantly, check for air leakage. Just a few random thoughts which might help.... Good luck.

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Hi  Shay,

 

whilst  it  will be interesting  to  see  what  thoughts  come up  on this  topic  I  tend  to  think  that   all  those extra  reeds   must  have  a dampening  effect  on  the  reedpans  which  could  result  in  diminished  output volume.

A  direct  comparison  between  a  radial  Pan  30k  Wheatstone  and  a rectangular Pan  30k Jeffries  has  to  be    of  interest... though  each  instrument  may  be  different  and  a  constantly  played  model  will  show  vitality  of  tone  over  another that  sits  on the  shelf.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/3/2022 at 9:22 AM, Geoff Wooff said:

Hi  Shay,

 

 

A  direct  comparison  between  a  radial  Pan  30k  Wheatstone  and  a rectangular Pan  30k Jeffries  has  to  be    of  interest... though  each  instrument  may  be  different  and  a  constantly  played  model  will  show  vitality  of  tone  over  another that  sits  on the  shelf.

I have a 51 button Jeffries duet and a 53 button Wheatstone Jeffries duet.  The range is basically the same although the Wheatstone is quire a bit larger.  The Jeffries ( 6 1/4" ) is loud and clear, The Wheatstone (8 1/2 ) much more reedy and soft sounding although it's hard to say less in volume.  Both have rather sparse fretwork ( metal ends ) and steel reeds.  The first thing that jumped out at me in your photos is the large amount of chamois gasketing especially around the donut hole.  I keep photos of the innards of mine to aid in repairs etc..  A quick glance at the reed pans reveals the linear amt. of gasketing in the Wheatstone ( radial ) to be more than double that of the Jeffries ( rectangular ) even if they were the same size across the flats.  Also, the Jeffries has no dedicated gasket around the hole.  I don't have a lot of experience with other instruments but it seems to me this could have a large damping effect.

Edited by wunks
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42 minutes ago, wunks said:

I have a 51 button Jeffries duet and a 53 button Wheatstone Jeffries duet.  The range is basically the same although the Wheatstone is quire a bit larger.  The Jeffries ( 6 1/4" ) is loud and clear, The Wheatstone (8 1/2 ) much more reedy and soft sounding although it's hard to say less in volume.  Both have rather sparse fretwork ( metal ends ) and steel reeds.  The first thing that jumped out at me in your photos is the large amount of chamois gasketing especially around the donut hole.  I keep photos of the innards of mine to aid in repairs etc..  A quick glance at the reed pans reveals the linear amt. of gasketing in the Wheatstone ( radial ) to be more than double that of the Jeffries ( rectangular ) even if they were the same size across the flats.  Also, the jeffries has no dedicated gasket around the hole.  I don't have a lot of experience with other instruments but it seems to me this could a large damping effect.

Yes. To my eye most of the gasketing inboard of the chamber ends is redundant, from a sealing point of view anyway.

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Thanks, The chamois gaskets might be a factor. I might try a lighter leather in narrower strips.  Might even  remove the circular gasket around the centre hole to see what difference if any, it makes. Will report back in due course.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Replaced the gasket with narrower strips. No appreciable difference. 

The heavier bellows might be a factor too but I'm not changing that.

 

I guess it is intrinsically a softer sound due to the radial design and chamber size.

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On 6/19/2022 at 9:42 PM, Shayfogs said:

The bellows is a replacement by John Connors. It is Moroccan leather and heavier than normal.

If my John Connors English (#2) is anything to go by, most of John's work is heavier than normal! It's loud though.

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I had two of John's bellows and although maybe heavier, they were wonderful quality and I am not sure I noticed any real difference compared to the Rosalie dipper bellows I have had.

               They would not affect volume at all and I would be very happy to have them on any anglo.

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No doubting the quality of John Connor's bellows but they are very heavy and I think do play a part in the sound from my tina. However the biggest factor is the radial layout. I swopped reeds into another Jeffries and they did sound brighter. So the radial layout does have a dampening effect on the sound. On the plus side It does have a nice tone and is very playable.

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it is probably the fact that you have so many reeds packed into a small space, the chamber sizes are correspondingly reduced, the reed lengths may ne shorter, so the reed thicknesses are greater. I might guess that on the Bass end, there are several reeds that have been weighted on their tips to drop their natural pitch.

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Hi Dave,

The reed sizes are normal as far as I can see, The reed chambers esp the RH are smaller in depth being 6mm as opposed to 10mm on the LH. (This is the same as on my 30 key Jeffries) The LH reeds are not more loaded than normal and in fact the ones from E/F down have a good growl to them.

Are you saying smaller reed chambers in themselves reduce the reed response?

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There can be many reasons for one concertina to sound different from another. I am not convinced that the reed layout in itself (radial versus whatever you call the usual Jeffries layout) would be one of them, though it may have implications for the sizes of the reed chambers.

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Hi Richard,

I agree. They're like people, so individual, even when made with exactly the same materials.

I'm just trying to eliminate possible causes. 

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Another variable that you touched in briefly is valves.  Valves that are heavier than ideal can reduce volume significantly.  How thick are your valves?  What kind of leather have you used?

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8 hours ago, Theo said:

Another variable that you touched in briefly is valves.  Valves that are heavier than ideal can reduce volume significantly.  How thick are your valves?  What kind of leather have you used?

What Theo said.

I did suggest this and other comparatively simple reasons for the lack of volume some weeks ago, but these ideas seems to have been dismissed in favour of more complex (and possibly insurmountable) causes, though an interesting thread has nevertheless resulted..... :-)

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