Can you identify this problem? Updated w/ pictures

[seanc]

So, my Crane seems to all of sudden developed an issue. 55b Lachenal.

suddenly the middle A on the right is fine on the pull. But on the push it is very muffled. It takes a lot of pressure (maybe double) to get the reed to sound. But this pressure seems to equal the volume of surrounding notes.

 

I am guessing this is a valve issue?

 

is this something likely to fix itself with weather and humidity changes? Or is this something I should fix/ replace?

 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by seanc

[David Barnert]

Perhaps air is leaking around the reed shoe, which is not tightly sealed in its wooden dovetail slot. Often this can be remedied by simply pressing the reed shoe firmly into the slot with your thumb (remember that the “push” reeds will be on the surface of the reed pan that faces in toward the bellows). If you have the sense that this is on the right track (ie., the reed shoe is clearly loose in its slot) but thumb pressure doesn’t remedy it, you may have to cut a little shim out of newspaper and insert it beside the shoe to make it fit tight.

[Chris Ghent]

Not likely to resolve itself. Most likely quick reasons are either a valve pulled into the slot or more likely, something fouling the reed. As David says the frame could be loose but this is usually accompanied by symptoms such as a clattering as the frame moves in the slot, which you don’t mention. 

[David Barnert]

7 hours ago, Chris Ghent said:

As David says the frame could be loose but this is usually accompanied by symptoms such as a clattering as the frame moves in the slot, which you don’t mention. 

 

In my experience, much more often there is no “clattering,” but the note just sounds “fluffy” (seanc used the word “muffled”). I don’t think I’ve ever heard the clattering, and I’ve certainly used the thumb pressure trick many times to remedy a fluffy sounding reed.

[d.elliott]

Have you noticed a flattening of the reed?

[seanc]

I do not hear any clattering, assuming this to mean some sort of noise relating to the reed/ shoe vibrating in the slot.

 

I do not notice any sort of major tuning variation between the push and the pull. But I don’t remember it being substantially sharp before this started. So, it it may be possible that it was a bit sharp and now is a little flatter than it was.

 

I am not sure about “fluffy” 

 

the best I can describe is that at normal (to me) playing volume, it sounds as muffled, or like it the valve is not opening. But when I give it a good push on the bellows it sounds loud clear and normal. Tuning seems ok.

 

I have not opened it up yet. 
 

I did order your Maintenance Manual. I was waiting for it to land and look at the possible fix before trying to fiddle around.

 

 

[Geoffrey Crabb]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:49 AM, seanc said:

       suddenly the middle A on the right is fine on the pull. But on the push it is very muffled.

It takes a lot of pressure (maybe double) to get the reed to sound.

But this pressure seems to equal the volume of surrounding notes.

I am guessing this is a valve issue?

is this something likely to fix itself with weather and humidity changes? Or is this something I should fix/ replace?

 

The underlined, by me, suggests that the valve for the pull reed, the one by the side of the push reed (on the underside of the reed pan) , may be severely curled back, displaced  or even have have dropped off.

 

Valves are provided on most* reeds to stop available air bleeding through the non-sounding reed of a pair. The usual effect of a missing valve is that the associated reed may sound at half power. 

 

*Valves are often omitted for very small reeds where the bleed effect is desirable to relieve direct airflow (pressure) that may overload (choke) a reed. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Geoffrey Crabb

[seanc]

Updated. I opened it up. Looked around. I do not see anything way off. So, closed it up.

it seems that now the note high C now sounds muted on both the push and the pull.

ideas?

could this be a top/ fit issue? Too loose, too tight?

 

 

[seanc]

Other side

 

[PaddyLosty]

Open it up and slide the offending reed out of its dovetail and then push it back in snugly (not too snug though). That seems to solve a lot of mysterious issues. 

[seanc]

9 hours ago, PaddyLosty said:

Open it up and slide the offending reed out of its dovetail and then push it back in snugly (not too snug though). That seems to solve a lot of mysterious issues. 

having never done this… is there anything I need to know here? Is it just a matter of a little pressure to push out and a little pressure to reseat?

 

 

[PaddyLosty]

8 minutes ago, seanc said:

having never done this… is there anything I need to know here? Is it just a matter of a little pressure to push out and a little pressure to reseat?

 

 

Yup just slide it out with your thumb. It might be a little stuck, don't force it if it seems unreasonable. Chance it could be a loose though based on the symptoms. If it won't snug up when you push it back in then let us know, there are ways to fix that but hopefully won't be necessary.

 

[David Barnert]

On 5/2/2022 at 6:16 AM, seanc said:

having never done this… is there anything I need to know here? Is it just a matter of a little pressure to push out and a little pressure to reseat?

You might not even have to take them out first. Every time I open my concertina, before I put it back together I go around both sides of the exposed reed pan with my thumb, gently but firmly pressing on the heel of each reed shoe (in the direction of toward the center) just to make sure that if any one of them has a little wiggle room it is appropriately wedged into its slot.

[Ken_Coles]

IIRC the late Rich Morse said he had to do this twice a year on his Wheatstone Hayden (reset all the reeds), at the start and end of the dry heating season.

 

Ken

[seanc]

Update..

I did open it up. Push the reeds out and push them back in.

 

no resistance, very easily done.

 

I would say that the problem is still there. But, and this may be wishful thinking, it seems less than it was. Looking at the reeds while they were out, I did not see anything that looked wrong, obstructed or off.

 

any other thoughts?

 

 

Richard was pretty local to me. So now knowing the process, I may try this as a thing to do.

[PaddyLosty]

When you pushed the reeds back into the dovetail, did they feel like they went in snugly, or did it feel like they were still quite loose? There may be a need to shim them with a little sliver of paper. However with warmer weather and some humidity the issue may resolve itself, at least until the fall when it gets dry again. 

[seanc]

I pulled out an pushed back in both reeds. The pull slid right in. The upper (push) kind of “popped” in.

 

I guess I live with it until the weather changes. It is still cold here. See what happens once things warm up a bit.

 

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I was wondering if more traditionally made reeds in concertina [as displayed in the photos in this topic] are they perhaps more prone to humidity change than the 'steel Accordion' type reeds [mounted differently; or not?

I am not saying in particular that one type is better than the other; just maybe that it is one possibility?