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Help with a Wheatstone Model 22


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7 minutes ago, wunks said:

I have this dilemma with my C core duet.  The easiest and least harmful ( for the reeds ) tuning would seem to be up to C#.  Because it is chromatic it just means different fingerings, not all that difficult on a Jeff duet.  I don't know if this would be true for EC but it is an option.

Wunks,

  how off (in terms of Hz) is it? 
and how is it playing with others? Do you notice a huge difference when playing with only certain types of instruments? Or way off with all instruments?

 

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10 hours ago, Little John said:

If my rough calculation is about right, that would but them approximately eight cents sharp.

My calculations agree: 7.78 cents sharp.

6 hours ago, seanc said:

How out of tune would 452 sound? My initial feeling would be it would be way off. 

46 cents sharp, almost half a semitone. Eek!

 

Anybody wondering how to do these calculations, the relationship between pitch and frequency is logarithmic: when you add intervals, you multiply their frequencies. An octave (12 semitones) doubles the frequency, so an equal temperament semitone multiplies the frequency by the 12th root of 2, or 1.06 (actually an irrational number slightly smaller than 1.06 but larger than 1.059).

 

So how much sharper than 440 is 452? The ratio of the frequencies is 452/440 = 1.02727..., the natural log of which is 0.0269... . The natural log of the 12th root of 2 is 0.0578... . Divide them and you get 0.0269/0.0578 = 0.46... of a semitone. Since a cent is 1/100th of a semitone, this equals 46 cents.

Edited by David Barnert
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seanc,  I'm not exactly sure in Hz but it's "almost" a half step sharp, way to much for standard pitch C and not quite enough for C#.  Too noticeable in either case.  I'm taking my time with it because I have another box in Modern pitch.

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6 hours ago, seanc said:

From a practical point of view. Depending on the instrumentation. How out of tune would 452 sound? My initial feeling would be it would be way off. 
 

but, then. I think of fretted instruments, that are really only “in tune” at the point of tuning (open string) and then “mostly” in tune at the octave. Fixed frets and various string diameters mean varying degrees of out of tune. And top it off with standard tuners can be substantially off from exact 440.

 

wind instrument tunings also vary depending on how much air is being being pushed.

fretless instruments, would pretty much would unconsciously adjust by ear.

 

I throw this out there. As, on paper, it should be way off. But, in a practical application. It might work. And with the cost of a complete, professional retune. It would be worth trying it to hear what it sounds like before having that work done.

 

 

 

 

No!  A=452 is roughly a quarter tone sharp. So for example C would sound midway between C and C#.  Anyone who didn't object to a 440 and a 452 instrument playing together is probably profoundly deaf!

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6 hours ago, wunks said:

I have this dilemma with my C core duet.  The easiest and least harmful ( for the reeds ) tuning would seem to be up to C#.  Because it is chromatic it just means different fingerings, not all that difficult on a Jeff duet.  I don't know if this would be true for EC but it is an option.

I  would  not  advise  tuning  up  half  a semitone.  Many ( most ?)   vintage  concertinas  now  in  A440hz have  been  tuned  down  from  A452hz.  This  involves  slightly  thinning  the  reed  tongue  towards  the  clamped  end to  reduce its  stiffness.  Tuning  up  requires  thining  the  free  end  to  lighten   the  tongue  and  needs   great  care.  Of  course  Jeffries  reeds  with  Lead  weighted  tips  can  be  easily  raised  but  they  don't  all  have  this  feature.

Edited by Geoff Wooff
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2 hours ago, Lofty said:

I own 28614. Interesting that they ended up so far away from each other (I live in England)

wow! so close to this concertina! 

Yous appears to have been made on October 25, 1920. And it is a 56 keys tenor-treble right?

It also shares the same description S.V and W.S. Do you know what those mean? thank you!

 

02.png

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1 hour ago, PaddyLosty said:

SV for the air lever (single valve or slide valve) and WS for the Wrist Strap. 

Thank you! Now I know those wrist strap are original 🙌

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On 4/24/2022 at 12:04 PM, seanc said:

From a practical point of view. Depending on the instrumentation. How out of tune would 452 sound? My initial feeling would be it would be way off. 

 

Your initial feeling would be correct, Old Philharmonic Pitch (A=452.4) is 48 cents (so very nearly 50 cents = half a semitone) sharp, which is indeed way off. The beat between the two pitches would be intolerable.

 

Edited by Stephen Chambers
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I recently bought a 1922 type 21A in mint condition for $2200.00. It hadn't been played much in it's lifetime so the bellows were a bit stiff. They have loosened up from use and it playes great.

'22 tina3.JPG

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Just now, fred v said:

I recently bought a 1922 type 21A in mint condition for $2200.00. It hadn't been played much in it's lifetime so the bellows were a bit stiff. They have loosened up from use and it playes great.

'22 tina3.JPG

I removed the buttons and reeds for notes not ever used in Irish music.

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On 4/25/2022 at 8:28 PM, Gaspar said:

wow! so close to this concertina! 

Yous appears to have been made on October 25, 1920. And it is a 56 keys tenor-treble right?

It also shares the same description S.V and W.S. Do you know what those mean? thank you!

 

Mine is actually a 56 key extended treble, so has some very high notes above the normal range. A tenor-treble version would be nice…..

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