Edward Jay's to-be Beaumont successor discussion

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

1 hour ago, Don Taylor said:

I was assuming you meant either of the two DIX concertina style reeds.

 

Those are 2x and 2.5x more expensive than plain DIX and only come in brass flavour. There is also no musical benefit from using "DIX concertina" over plain DIX, those have exactly same tongues and slots, "DIX concertina" are just heavier (more brass per two tongues) and more cumbersome to use, so contradict the "affordable" goal. "DIX concertina original" have straight tongues, however I don't know if they have tapered slots.

[Steve Schulteis]

8 minutes ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

Those are 2x and 2.5x more expensive than plain DIX and only come in brass flavour. There is also no musical benefit from using "DIX concertina" over plain DIX, those have exactly same tongues and slots, "DIX concertina" are just heavier (more brass per two tongues) and more cumbersome to use, so contradict the "affordable" goal. "DIX concertina original" have straight tongues, however I don't know if they have tapered slots.

 

My understanding is that the "DIX", "DIX concertina", and "DIX concertina original" reeds all have effectively the same tongues, and none have tapered slots. I have some of the "original" reeds (I really need to get that build going), so I can double check them later if anyone cares.

 

I'm curious why you say the concertina reeds are more cumbersome. I figured they would be faster/easier to swap in and out for final tuning. Is it a matter of reed pan production? I realize the reed price difference renders this question kind of irrelevant - I'm just wondering what I'm missing.

 

I think both of these Hayden projects are great, and I'm looking forward to watching them progress.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

29 minutes ago, Steve Schulteis said:

 

My understanding is that the "DIX", "DIX concertina", and "DIX concertina original" reeds all have effectively the same tongues, and none have tapered slots. I have some of the "original" reeds (I really need to get that build going), so I can double check them later if anyone cares.

 

I'm curious why you say the concertina reeds are more cumbersome. I figured they would be faster/easier to swap in and out for final tuning. Is it a matter of reed pan production? I realize the reed price difference renders this question kind of irrelevant - I'm just wondering what I'm missing.

 

I think both of these Hayden projects are great, and I'm looking forward to watching them progress.

 

I've just looked more closely at technical drawings on harmonikas.cz and indeed DIX concertina original also have trapezoid tongues, but strangely, have tongue scaling 2mm longer than DIX/DIX concertina reeds of the same size number.
 

As to "more cumbersome" - printing reedpan for a hybrid is straightforward once you establish chamber dimensions, printing reedpan for dovetail reeds isn't. I'm not even sure it is possible to print one that won't require machining or gluing from two parts. Mounting valves on accordion reeds is also easier than with traditional concertina construction, especially with plastic reedpan, where mounting valve pins is not as easy as in wood. Unscrewing a screw and loosening one doesn't really take that much time than removing a dovetail reed.

[Lakeman]

I commissioned the world's first Crane duet 3 D printed concertina from Ed Jay. Version  one - which is blue in colour so we call it  "the Bluejay" - was ready in January and I was very pleased with it. But, after playing it  for a short while-including performing with it in public - Ed and I talked at length and came up with various " tweaks" which have improved it ( especially the sound)  by 50 per cent or more ! So....it has traditional leather bellows, metal buttons and Italian accordion reeds....everything else is 3D printed.It is Eco-friendly and. biodegrabable. No hydro-carbons in the " plastic" which, as I understand it, contains rice. So it is a concertina grown in a paddy field! And, when we discussed the alterations I wanted Ed simply said " Easy...I'll just print you new ends." Which he did.Because of the sort of material I perform, with elongated  full chords, I found the six bellows a little restricting so he added another fold ( 7 ).It has 55 buttons, plus air button.He provided me with a custom-made carrying box.... and, without prompting. has configured " built- in" high-standard mics on either side with a fold-away mount. Makes more sense when you see it.Version one was a little raspy and too much like an accordion sound for my liking. English concertina maestro Rob Harbron has played one of ED's instruments- which I handled - and had made similar comments.Amazingly - to my mind - Ed construed that the sound coming out of the ends would change significantly by having a different design on the ends. He reduced the design-pattern  to  quite small leaf-like holes,  and the decreased fenestration resulted in a much sweeter, more concertina-like tone.It is mellow, but still quite loud when you want it to be- depending on bellows control.I have put a sample of Version One on Facebook previously. I am a techno-twanky, so struggle with these various platforms, but I will try and put pictures and possible  sound samples up here.Ed is supremely enthusiastic about his project and very knowledgable- and approachable. Anybody with detailed questions only needs to contact him direct. To sit in his Bristol home surrounded by a dozen or so of these machines ( English, Anglo and my Duet) was impressive.A Swedish player collected an instrument from him the day before me. These machines are going to make concertina-playing more affordable, especially for youngsters- and will around the world.

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Lakeman
spelling mistakes

[Lakeman]

OK, so here I am again trying to download something. This is Version One of "The Bluejay" Crane Duet 3- D printed concertina, with the larger holes in the end design.The tune is "The Road Together" written by Irish button-accoordeon virtuoso Martin O'Connor which I put on my debut solo album "After All These Years."Oops, dammit - computer says ":NO" , file too big, although it is only a short piece. So, folks...anybody want to see/hear it why not send me your email address and I'll post it directly to you. My email is geoffreylakeman@btinternet.com

 

 

 

[Lakeman]

One interesting little detail I left out....on trad', vintage instruments a common problem is pads falling off, possibly because they are attached with glue that  should not completely not dry-out, allowing them some flex to move and  fit over the hole firmly. Ed has got around this by  designing ( and 3 D printing) tiny little ball-and-socket joints on  the ends where the levers join the pads, ensuring a tight, perfect fit each time the pad closes over the holes

[Penny Borg]

I see you’re working on a 46-button duet. Do you have an idea when that might be ready and what price range it might be?  I’m a complete beginner looking to start with a duet who was advised to have a look at this thread regarding your 3D model. It seems as though the Elise falls a bit short, even for a beginner. Thank you!

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

21 hours ago, Penny Borg said:

I see you’re working on a 46-button duet. Do you have an idea when that might be ready and what price range it might be?  I’m a complete beginner looking to start with a duet who was advised to have a look at this thread regarding your 3D model. It seems as though the Elise falls a bit short, even for a beginner. Thank you!

 

Mine 46: As to when - no sooner than fall. As to price point - anything between Stagi and Troubadour, it is too soon to tell.

Ed's box - no idea, anything between weeks to months, and the price will depend on the final size of the instrument. At this point one of the variants entertained is a large, 70 buttons square box.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Łukasz Martynowicz

[Kaleb]

4 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

 

Mine 46: As to when - no sooner than fall. As to price point - anything between Stagi and Troubadour, it is too soon to tell.

Ed's box - no idea, anything between weeks to months, and the price will depend on the final size of the instrument. At this point one of the variants entertained is a large, 70 buttons square box.

 

I would love to get my hands on anything with more than 46 buttons, so if Ed needs a tester or someone to be his first customer, put me on that list! It seems unlikely that I'll find a Beaumont at this point. 70 buttons sounds interesting!

[David Barnert]

17 minutes ago, Kaleb Kuan said:

 

I would love to get my hands on anything with more than 46 buttons, so if Ed needs a tester or someone to be his first customer, put me on that list!

 

Why not contact Ed directly from the contact page on his website?

[robertovich]

 

I would also like to express my interest in a "successor to the Beaumont" discussion.  I have owned a Beaumont Hayden  for about 5 years and considered myself--rightly or wrongly--an "advanced intermediate" player (on a good day) or midlin' intermediate on a so-so day!  Back when the Beaumont was being developed,  I was studying intensely on how to improve on the standard 46,  and working with some others like Mike Knudsen (RIP),  and Jim Albea,  plus a few more.  We went over dozens of button board layouts--given the reed type,  and box dimensions, etc.  So,  to Lukasc M.  and Ed J, and others interested, I I would put in my two cents worth.  

  Essentially,  this amounts to the following which I have concluded would make an excellent box  (first row begins with B flat):      1) Hex and  7" across the flats like the Beaumont.  2)  55-57 buttons  (including linkages if necessary.  3) This come to (ideally), 26 on LHS with the Ab (3rd. row up), D# (2nd. row up)  and C# (4th row up.  On RHS the Ab 3rd. row up,  the E (5th. row up).   The  lonely C# below the first row (RHS) is a friendly option which makes it 57 total.   4) Palm bar to be  perindicular to the "lap flat")  and parallel to the button rows.  I have experimented with both slant and parallel bars--I rigged a moveable/adjustable bar on my Stagi to do this before getting the Beaumont.  Conclusion:  Once used to one or the other,  not any significant difference--the hand adjusts.  For me,  the middle and index fingers alternated a little better between and 1 note and 4 note   with the slant bar,  and the short pinky finger reaches  are  significantly  better with the parallel bar.  Take your pick.  5) delrin buttons at 1/8" diameter with slightly radiused edges and flat tops.  Delrin is great but a bit slippery for me if tops are domed.  6)  7 leather bellows,  and leather palm strap with thumb cutout on bar.  

  That's it.  Comments welcome.  
::: 

Edward Jay's to-be Beaumont successor discussion - Instrument Construction & Repair - Concertina.net Discussion Forums.html Edward Jay's to-be Beaumont successor discussion - Instrument Construction & Repair - Concertina.net Discussion Forums.html

[robertovich]

 

I would also like to express my interest in a "successor to the Beaumont" discussion.  I have owned a Beaumont Hayden  for about 5 years and considered myself--rightly or wrongly--an "advanced intermediate" player (on a good day) or midlin' intermediate on a so-so day!  Back when the Beaumont was being developed,  I was studying intensely on how to improve on the standard 46,  and working with some others like Mike Knudsen (RIP),  and Jim Albea,  plus a few more.  We went over dozens of button board layouts--given the reed type,  and box dimensions, etc.  So,  to Lukasc M.  and Ed J, and others interested, I I would put in my two cents worth.  

  Essentially,  this amounts to the following which I have concluded would make an excellent box  (first row begins with B flat):      1) Hex and  7" across the flats like the Beaumont.  2)  55-57 buttons  (including linkages if necessary.  3) This come to (ideally), 26 on LHS with the Ab (3rd. row up), D# (2nd. row up)  and C# (4th row up.  On RHS the Ab 3rd. row up,  the E (5th. row up).   The  lonely C# below the first row (RHS) is a friendly option which makes it 57 total.   4) Palm bar to be  perindicular to the "lap flat")  and parallel to the button rows.  I have experimented with both slant and parallel bars--I rigged a moveable/adjustable bar on my Stagi to do this before getting the Beaumont.  Conclusion:  Once used to one or the other,  not any significant difference--the hand adjusts.  For me,  the middle and index fingers alternated a little better between and 1 note and 4 note   with the slant bar,  and the short pinky finger reaches  are  significantly  better with the parallel bar.  Take your pick.  5) delrin buttons at 1/8" diameter with slightly radiused edges and flat tops.  Delrin is great but a bit slippery for me if tops are domed.  6)  7 leather bellows,  and leather palm strap with thumb cutout on bar.  

  That's it.  Comments welcome.  
::: 

[alex_holden]

27 minutes ago, robertovich said:

5) delrin buttons at 1/8" diameter with slightly radiused edges and flat tops.

 

Do you mean 1/4"? 1/8" would be very small.

[Don Taylor]

2 hours ago, alex_holden said:

 

Do you mean 1/4"? 1/8" would be very small.

My Beaumont has 1/4" buttons with slightly radiused edges and flat tops.

 

I would not want anything smaller, certainly not 1/8" diameter buttons.

[robertovich]

4 hours ago, alex_holden said:

 

Do you mean 1/4"? 1/8" would be very small.

Yes,  indeed did mean 1/4".  Thanks for the heads up. 

 

[robertovich]

2 hours ago, Don Taylor said:

My Beaumont has 1/4" buttons with slightly radiused edges and flat tops.

 

I would not want anything smaller, certainly not 1/8" diameter buttons.

Yes,  my mistake.  !/4"  to be sure.  Any narrower and they hurt,  my fingers at least! 

[robertovich]

5 hours ago, alex_holden said:

 

Do you mean 1/4"? 1/8" would be very small.

Thanks for the correction.  My mistake.  I really like the !/4" diameters.  1/8"--YIKES!

[robertovich]

5 hours ago, alex_holden said:

 

Do you mean 1/4"? 1/8" would be very small.

Yes, indeed. My mistake.  I like my 1/4" buttons.  (Side note:  after purchasing the Beaumont about 5 years ago,  I found i had great finger slipping  trouble with the--even moderately-- domed buttons,  so I  asked the Button Boxs  to flatten them--with soft edges--and Judy Hawkins  did a very nice job.  I love my flat top,  1/4 delrins!  It is possible I was applying to much pressure to the domed buttons which may have contributed to the slipping.  In any event,  all is well now with the flat tops.)