Edward Jay's to-be Beaumont successor discussion

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

So, as I mentioned in a different thread, I'm helping Ed develop a new Hayden model. At this point we are discussing the range and size of the box, with Edward preferring the range over size. The current iteration is 55 button, hexagonal, 8 1/4" flat to flat box with Italian accordion reeds. The large size is due to Edward not being open to mounting accordion blocks and wanting to stick to flat, reedpan arrangement. He already made a Crane duet of this size and the owner is reportedly happy with both the feel and the sound of the instrument (is it someone on this site perhaps and is willing to share his experience first hand?).

 

Now for the layout. The basis is the current Beaumont. There is room for 25 notes on the LH side and 30 on the RH side, but basses are unlikely without some sacrifices. This is a quick reference chart to start the discussion. The left B4 and the right D#5 are half covered because those are IMHO the buttons which could be sacrificed for a bass note or increased range. Orange notes are my picks, coded for preference with the colour intensity. There might be a room for my style of button links, but that is to be established only after the reed layout is finalised.

 

Additional and a bit unrelated question. I'm recently doing some concept work on eventual small batch of 3d printed Haydens of my own to fill in yet another gap in the market, that is affordable "46 standard" box. Currently I'm leaning towards a 6-6 1/4" square box with accordion style bellows, built around DIX reeds. 

 

So, what are the hive mind opinions on those two options. 

As a bonus, a question about acceptable price point for Ed's instrument, given a method of production but having his proven quality of sound in mind.  And when you're at it, the acceptable price point for my eventual box.

[David Barnert]

For those not familiar with Edward Jay’s work, he makes concertinas with leather bellows and straps, accordion reeds, and pretty much everything else 3-D printed. Website here, demo video:

 

 

I might very well be interested in his Hayden-55, but I would definitely want the B and the D# (and all the other notes included in the standard 48 which I now play). E flats and more B flats would be nice, other additions less important, even if it comes to less than 55 keys.

 

Some questions:

• Will it be available with your thumb-mount alternative to the hand strap?
• Will it be available with the standard “Hayden” slant?

I have been out of the market for many years and have no idea what to expect it to cost.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

33 minutes ago, David Barnert said:

For those not familiar with Edward Jay’s work, he makes concertinas with leather bellows and straps, accordion reeds, and pretty much everything else 3-D printed. Website here, demo video:

 

 

I might very well be interested in his Hayden-55, but I would definitely want the B and the D# (and all the other notes included in the standard 48 which I now play). E flats and more B flats would be nice, other additions less important, even if it comes to less than 55 keys.

 

Some questions:

• Will it be available with your thumb-mount alternative to the hand strap?
• Will it be available with the standard “Hayden” slant?

I have been out of the market for many years and have no idea what to expect it to cost.

 

Wait, standard 48? Isn't the standard 46 as H-1? 

As to my antler alternative to hand strap I think that is something that would be a straightforward option to implement as soon as I'll find a good way to make my design an "universal fit". 

[David Barnert]

2 minutes ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

Wait, standard 48? Isn't the standard 46 as H-1? 

 

Sorry. Yes, 46. I misspoke.

[Don Taylor]

2 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

I'm recently doing some concept work on eventual small batch of 3d printed Haydens of my own to fill in yet another gap in the market, that is affordable "46 standard" box. Currently I'm leaning towards a 6-6 1/4" square box with accordion style bellows, built around DIX reeds. 

I would be very interested  in one of these as a small (robust?) travel concertina.  I spend most of my summer on a sailboat but am reluctant to take my Beaumont.  As far as price is concerned, maybe somewhere between an Elise and a Troubador is what I might be want to pay.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

2 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

I would be very interested  in one of these as a small (robust?) travel concertina.  I spend most of my summer on a sailboat but am reluctant to take my Beaumont.  As far as price is concerned, maybe somewhere between an Elise and a Troubador is what I might be want to pay.

I'm aiming at something between Stagi and Troubadour price tag myself, so your reply is well in line with it. Thanks
 

6 minutes ago, David Barnert said:

 

Sorry. Yes, 46. I misspoke.

Happens to the best of us

[David Barnert]

3 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

I spend most of my summer on a sailboat but am reluctant to take my Beaumont.

 

Is there a Pelican case that a Beaumont would fit into? Then as long as you don’t capsize while you’re playing, the instrument is protected.

[Don Taylor]

54 minutes ago, David Barnert said:

 

Is there a Pelican case that a Beaumont would fit into? Then as long as you don’t capsize while you’re playing, the instrument is protected.

I don't think so, their bigger cases are a lot bigger.  There is a Nanuk case that would work but I would prefer something small enough to fit in an iM2075 Pelican case so that a 6"-6 1/4" 46-button concertina as proposed by Łukasz sounds great.

 

 

[Don Taylor]

4 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

accordion style bellows

Care to elaborate a bit on this?  Are these leather bellows or fabric?

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

1 hour ago, Don Taylor said:

Care to elaborate a bit on this?  Are these leather bellows or fabric?

 

Accordion style, pre-folded papers, leather gussets and fabric top runs, like Elise has.

This is just a preliminary concept stage at this point. I'm assessing what is financially viable, as making concertinas will never be my main job and it is more of an ambition project, so it has to make me at least my main job wage while being as affordable as I can make it, which is quite a challenge. Of course I am aware, that accordion style bellows will have to be reflected in the lower price and I'm open to making option for concertina style bellows upgrade. One of the goals on this is developing a process that leaves a room for some flexibility/customisation while being as easy and straightforward as I can make it. So, for example, I'm certain that it won't have riveted action, as it is unprintable, even partially, but there can be a choice of durable plastic endplates and more fragile but prettier faux wood endplates. Musically speaking, since I'm aiming at DIX reeds, there can be a choice of timbre - accordion like (aluminum frame reeds), concertina like (brass frame reeds) and bandoneon like (zinc frame reeds), plus a choice of more open or cassotto endplates, etc.

Hopefully, I'll have a prototype around summer, as I need a travel box and I don't want to make another "single serving" concertina at the last notice as I did last year  

[Kaleb]

Just for my own understanding, the current Beaumont notechart shows 52 buttons, with 23 on the left and 29 on the right. So this new 55 button Hayden that is in the works would add 2 notes to the left and 1 to the right?

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

30 minutes ago, Kaleb Kuan said:

Just for my own understanding, the current Beaumont notechart shows 52 buttons, with 23 on the left and 29 on the right. So this new 55 button Hayden that is in the works would add 2 notes to the left and 1 to the right?

That is the current goal, yes. But since reed placement is not a trivial task, it may end with less than 55 buttons, but I don’t think it will be less than Beaumont’s 52. 

[Kaleb]

For the right hand: I would say to add the E and keep the D# since those who are used to the standard 46 layout would be use to having it.

 

For the left hand: I like the addition of the lower F, G, and A, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice the B4. In my opinion, I would go for an increased range rather than adding the Ab.

[Don Taylor]

I own a Beaumont and, on the whole, am pretty happy with the buttons that are already there.  I would like a D#3 on the LHS, but maybe that can be achieved by linking to the Eb3 that is already there?

 

I would not want a bigger and heavier concertina than the Beaumont and I find that the low accordion reeded notes are pretty harsh sounding already so adding three big, low reeds (and another row on the LHS) would not be my choice.

 

Maybe using DIX reeds would result in a smaller, less accordion-sounding concertina than is proposed?

Edited February 25, 2022 by Don Taylor
typo

[Don Taylor]

21 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

 

Accordion style, pre-folded papers, leather gussets and fabric top runs, like Elise has.
 

Have you considered using the ready-made bellows from Sandylaneman who sells on eBay? 

 

This would result in a 6 1/4" hexagonal box which, I suspect, would be an easier fit for a 46 button Hayden made using DIX reeds.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

13 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

I own a Beaumont and, on the whole, am pretty happy with the buttons that are already there.  I would like a D#3 on the LHS, but maybe that can be achieved by linking to the Eb3 that is already there?

 

I would not want a bigger and heavier concertina than the Beaumont and I find that the low accordion reeded notes are pretty harsh sounding already so adding three big, low reeds (and another row on the LHS) would not be my choice.

 

Maybe using DIX reeds would result in a smaller, less accordion-sounding concertina than is proposed?

 

I try very hard to convince Ed to try DIX reeds for a long time now, but he has only tried melodica ones, which are aluminum, and compared to Binci he's using have a worse tone.

Harsh sound of low notes is a chamber size problem that can be managed in a large box. But LH side is not layed out yet. 

Linking is an option, I have instructed Ed on how they work and he already ordered necessary supplies, but it may still be difficult to implement links in a crowded box. 

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

2 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

Have you considered using the ready-made bellows from Sandylaneman who sells on eBay? 

 

This would result in a 6 1/4" hexagonal box which, I suspect, would be an easier fit for a 46 button Hayden made using DIX reeds.

 

Sadly, 46 DIX does not fit in 6 1/4" hex. That is why I plan a square one. Hex must be 6" 3/4 - 7" if all reeds are mounted flat. Keep in mind, that I'm talking about accordion style, rectangular, double tongue DIX, not DIX concertina or DIX concertina original reeds.

 

[Don Taylor]

2 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

I'm talking about accordion style, rectangular, double tongue DIX, not DIX concertina or DIX concertina original reeds

I was assuming you meant either of the two DIX concertina style reeds.