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Hayden Duet Layout Planning


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51 minutes ago, David Barnert said:

Have you seen this?

 

I actually came across it earlier today, it's really cool!

 

I am curious about the acoustics, it sounds fine through video but acoustics is very hard. My brother and I actually have experience playing around with different materials and whatnot for some pretty involved 3D-printed headphones, PLA generally doesn't sound very good. Our best success was with PETG, and we haven't tried it yet but from my experience with other prints I think CF-filled materials are even better. Another material that comes to mind is woodfill (generally PLA-based), I'd love to try that with something like a concertina...

 

Another consideration is the mechanical properties of the material. He says he uses PLA, which is generally fine, maybe a bit heavy but plenty stiff -just don't leave it in a hot car!

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11 minutes ago, Dashy said:

I actually came across it earlier today, it's really cool!

 

I am curious about the acoustics, it sounds fine through video but acoustics is very hard. My brother and I actually have experience playing around with different materials and whatnot for some pretty involved 3D-printed headphones, PLA generally doesn't sound very good. Our best success was with PETG, and we haven't tried it yet but from my experience with other prints I think CF-filled materials are even better. Another material that comes to mind is woodfill (generally PLA-based), I'd love to try that with something like a concertina...

 

Another consideration is the mechanical properties of the material. He says he uses PLA, which is generally fine, maybe a bit heavy but plenty stiff -just don't leave it in a hot car!

 

As I wrote, Ed spent a whole year meticulously fine tuning the sound of it. Before he started making concertinas, he was an accordion tuner for more than a decade, so you can trust his expertise. But you don't have to rely on trust alone, he got some of the best UK players to "test drive" those. Also, the material of the concertina plays only a secondary role in the acoustics of it, sound reflections are the key.

Now, on the unrelated topic, I have updated my thread with some pictures of the link mechanism: 

As to sharing my handle design, my ultimate goal is indeed to popularise this design, so I don't say no, but you will have to be patient just for a little bit longer. At this moment those are calibrated for my hand only and the proper calibration is key to this design. I'll have to come up with some sort of adjustable solution first before I can offer it to the public.

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34 minutes ago, Dashy said:

Another consideration is the mechanical properties of the material. He says he uses PLA, which is generally fine, maybe a bit heavy but plenty stiff -just don't leave it in a hot car!

 

He uses PLA for the box and reedpan and CF infused filament for all the moving parts.

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Working on a parametric 3D printable mockup, just need to add the handrest and buttons. Handrest is easy, buttons are a little harder. Right now what I've got is a plate with configurable flat-to-flat diameter and number of sides.

 

I'm surprised how small a 7.25" octagon feels, not too much bigger than a 6.5" hexagon!

20220124_08351601.thumb.jpg.bb6999103c3bb7202e08a79ff63bf8ee.jpg

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Finished the button generation and handrest, the script is set up so you just feed the list of notes and dimensions and stuff to it in a JSON and it builds it! The alignment is a little wonky because I don't have those dimensions available (and the plate the buttons are on is a just a big rectangle because the version of CADQuery I'm stuck with right now doesn't have 2D convex hull working), but nevertheless I'm really glad I printed these out.

 

With 9mm vertical spacing and 16mm horizontal spacing these button layouts are a bit wide, I think it should be fine but I do want to see if I can make the button field a little more compact before settling on anything. Probably just gonna print out the button field alone for future mockups just to save filament and time, 'cause now I know I'm fine with the size of the box.

 

Maybe I should design an adjustable mockup jig so you don't have to print out a whole new thing for each layout, just add and remove buttons on the fly... adjustable handrest would be good too... I wonder if anyone besides me would use it.

Anyway, pictures of my new mockups!

20220125_144336.thumb.jpg.34ac5348750ee6066809f6e10b9cbf25.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Dashy said:

Finished the button generation and handrest, the script is set up so you just feed the list of notes and dimensions and stuff to it in a JSON and it builds it! The alignment is a little wonky because I don't have those dimensions available (and the plate the buttons are on is a just a big rectangle because the version of CADQuery I'm stuck with right now doesn't have 2D convex hull working), but nevertheless I'm really glad I printed these out.

 

With 9mm vertical spacing and 16mm horizontal spacing these button layouts are a bit wide, I think it should be fine but I do want to see if I can make the button field a little more compact before settling on anything. Probably just gonna print out the button field alone for future mockups just to save filament and time, 'cause now I know I'm fine with the size of the box.

 

Maybe I should design an adjustable mockup jig so you don't have to print out a whole new thing for each layout, just add and remove buttons on the fly... adjustable handrest would be good too... I wonder if anyone besides me would use it.

Anyway, pictures of my new mockups!

20220125_144336.thumb.jpg.34ac5348750ee6066809f6e10b9cbf25.jpg

 

Closer spacing will in turn require smaller buttons, which in turn make the 'tina less comfortable to play and lever routing even harder to solve than it normally is due to less space between button stems. With the above print I already see a huge problem with lever routing, especially LH sharps side. For me, the smallest comfortable buttons are 5mm diameter, with 6mm ones being significantly better, and at 6.5 mm I start to hit adjacent buttons (on the standard 9/16mm spaced array). This translates to a minimum of 6mm distance between buttons, and less than 8mm gain by squeezing your array to the minimum. Put a hand strap on this mockup, and then try to play some tunes with a lot of high sharps and sharp chords in it to see where you can even reach comfortably and then see if this gain is even enough to fit everything within a playable area.

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1 hour ago, Dashy said:

With 9mm vertical spacing and 16mm horizontal spacing these button layouts are a bit wide, I think it should be fine but I do want to see if I can make the button field a little more compact before settling on anything.

 

I assume, given that you’ve got the numbers right, that you’ve seen “Inventor”’s specs. Being new to the forum you might not know who “Inventor” is, and he's not saying, but your first guess would be correct.

 

On 9/20/2006 at 7:55 AM, inventor said:

16mm between the centres of buttons along the rows 9mm between one row and the next above - to give an equal spacing of 12mm between the nearest buttons along the diagonal. The rows to slope down at an angle of 10.5 degrees towards the thumbs. Large flat top buttons are preferable (i.e. a minimum of 6mm diameter, 7mm standard accordion bass buttons would be very good).

 

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39 minutes ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

 

Closer spacing will in turn require smaller buttons, which in turn make the 'tina less comfortable to play and lever routing even harder to solve than it normally is due to less space between button stems. With the above print I already see a huge problem with lever routing, especially LH sharps side. For me, the smallest comfortable buttons are 5mm diameter, with 6mm ones being significantly better, and at 6.5 mm I start to hit adjacent buttons (on the standard 9/16mm spaced array). This translates to a minimum of 6mm distance between buttons, and less than 8mm gain by squeezing your array to the minimum. Put a hand strap on this mockup, and then try to play some tunes with a lot of high sharps and sharp chords in it to see where you can even reach comfortably and then see if this gain is even enough to fit everything within a playable area.

I was actually thinking more about moving a couple buttons to the flat side (or vice versa), I don't really want to change the spacing or button size (buttons are 6mm diameter, for the record).

 

I think I put the button field and the handrest a full row too close together, and laterally I think the button field is a whole column too far in the thumb direction, at least on the left. The handrest is also way too shallow.

Trying to mime a few tunes, it's not too bad -it's just a bit of a stretch between the left and right extremes. I think I'll design an adjustable mockup to play around with now, but it's looking good so far!

 

I can see how the antler grip helps here -keeping my wrist stationary it can be quite uncomfortable to reach some buttons, but keeping my thumb stationary I can reach the far right with my index finger and the far left with my pinky!

 

The changes I wanna try now for the next mockup: Move Ab2 and Eb3 to G#2 and D#3 on the left, and move A#5 to Bb5 on the right. That will make it narrower, so a little more compact.

 

2 minutes ago, David Barnert said:

I assume, given that you’ve got the numbers right, that you’ve seen “Inventor”’s specs. Being new to the forum you might not know who “Inventor” is, and he's not saying, but your first guess would be correct.

I've seen "Inventor" around here, but I must admit I didn't know those numbers were from him! I got them from the spec sheet given to me by @Pistachio Dreamer.

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36 minutes ago, Dashy said:

  

I was actually thinking more about moving a couple buttons to the flat side (or vice versa), I don't really want to change the spacing or button size (buttons are 6mm diameter, for the record).

 

I think I put the button field and the handrest a full row too close together, and laterally I think the button field is a whole column too far in the thumb direction, at least on the left. The handrest is also way too shallow.

Trying to mime a few tunes, it's not too bad -it's just a bit of a stretch between the left and right extremes. I think I'll design an adjustable mockup to play around with now, but it's looking good so far!

 

I can see how the antler grip helps here -keeping my wrist stationary it can be quite uncomfortable to reach some buttons, but keeping my thumb stationary I can reach the far right with my index finger and the far left with my pinky!

 

The changes I wanna try now for the next mockup: Move Ab2 and Eb3 to G#2 and D#3 on the left, and move A#5 to Bb5 on the right. That will make it narrower, so a little more compact.

 

I've seen "Inventor" around here, but I must admit I didn't know those numbers were from him! I got them from the spec sheet given to me by @Pistachio Dreamer.

 

Ach, I misunderstood.

My current array goes from Bbs/Ebs to D#/G#, but with antlers I could extend it to span from Abs/Ebs to A#s/Fs without sacrificing the ability to finger all available triads with same fingers efficiently and add two additional rows on each side, giving me the maximum reachable layout going from C2 up to E7.

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9 hours ago, Dashy said:

Finished the button generation and handrest, the script is set up so you just feed the list of notes and dimensions and stuff to it in a JSON and it builds it! The alignment is a little wonky because I don't have those dimensions available (and the plate the buttons are on is a just a big rectangle because the version of CADQuery I'm stuck with right now doesn't have 2D convex hull working), but nevertheless I'm really glad I printed these out.

 

With 9mm vertical spacing and 16mm horizontal spacing these button layouts are a bit wide, I think it should be fine but I do want to see if I can make the button field a little more compact before settling on anything. Probably just gonna print out the button field alone for future mockups just to save filament and time, 'cause now I know I'm fine with the size of the box.

 

Maybe I should design an adjustable mockup jig so you don't have to print out a whole new thing for each layout, just add and remove buttons on the fly... adjustable handrest would be good too... I wonder if anyone besides me would use it.

Anyway, pictures of my new mockups!

20220125_144336.thumb.jpg.34ac5348750ee6066809f6e10b9cbf25.jpg

Is it just me? The top row looks a long way from the hand rest.

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Ed Jay has made me the very first 3 D printed Crane duet concertina ( I put a video up on Facebook ). It is 55 button, six-fold and BLUE !( my choice) He is currently working on Prototype number 2 - a few tweaks to buttons, seven-fold etc. I'll post new video when I get the machine back.I gave the "BlueJay" Prototype 1  a live World Premier a couple of weeks ago at a Bodmin Folk Club gig and people were intrigued.I'm sure it is the way forward for concertina construction - if only for affordability. Accordion reeds, I know, but an interesting sound/alternative to add to my arsenal; of traditional vintage Wheatstone and Lachenal instrumentments.Particularly  ideal for Americana stuff, along with  the banjo of my duo  buddy Rob Murch.

 

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Update on the mockup stuff, made a pegboard version!

20220127_152928.thumb.jpg.aa1a02cda46eb13b5621c6ab9d7fcd79.jpg

 

Tolerances on the pegs are a pain to get right and strangely inconsistent, but it's working. Not pictured is the handrest, haven't quite gotten the tolerances right for that yet. Gonna take some experimentation to find the right layout, but I'm super glad I'm doing this because now I know my original ideas weren't really ideal.

 

On 1/26/2022 at 12:11 AM, JimR said:

Is it just me? The top row looks a long way from the hand rest.

You are not wrong. The button field is pretty tall, and making these mockups I've realized how important handrest height is in addition to distance from the buttons.

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13 hours ago, Dashy said:

Update on the mockup stuff, made a pegboard version!

20220127_152928.thumb.jpg.aa1a02cda46eb13b5621c6ab9d7fcd79.jpg

 

Tolerances on the pegs are a pain to get right and strangely inconsistent, but it's working. Not pictured is the handrest, haven't quite gotten the tolerances right for that yet. Gonna take some experimentation to find the right layout, but I'm super glad I'm doing this because now I know my original ideas weren't really ideal.

 

You are not wrong. The button field is pretty tall, and making these mockups I've realized how important handrest height is in addition to distance from the buttons.

Please turn that into a concertina themed board game once you're done!

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Alright, progress!

 

So, working off of the range I'm targeting (E2-B4/G3-E6) I removed all the sharps and flats and left only the white keys in that range, then went through a collection of songs I would like to be able to play and added the keys I needed (or preferred) to mime them on my mockup. I came up with a 63-key minimal layout:

image.png.9ff561d9ae10d6d7afd758629142b3ee.png

 

Kind'a weird how that F#4 on the left never came up... but either way, this is the minimum for comfortably playing my set of test songs. There are a couple keys I could drop and still play the songs, but I would need some weird stretching or fingering shifts that didn't really come naturally.

 

Now, this layout isn't quite chromatic, so I filled in the missing notes like so:

image.png.775ea98de4378fc539b2142f441d5d3a.png

 

D#6 on the right and Bb4 on the left can be a little bit of a stretch to reach, but my reasoning is that since they didn't come up in my test songs, thus probably won't come up as frequently as the other keys, they're less important to optimize for --it's important to me to have them, but I don't need to compromise anything else to have them in a better spot.

 

This layout has one fewer left-hand reed and four more right-hand reeds than the 65K @Pistachio Dreamer showed earlier in this thread, which given what I've learned about concertina size constraints sounds like a good L/R balance... to me, at least.

 

Here's the current mockup:

20220130_142816.thumb.jpg.3822e2f783caa731655d6be3c3eb49ce.jpg20220130_142801.thumb.jpg.f98631ef9ab7c347d71eca8ae82d1df3.jpg

 

I printed out another pegboard and some peg-mounted handrests, then stuck the two pegboards together with two pegs to get a very thin concertina. Black and white correspond to the colors of a piano keyboard, and blue is the extra notes I used to fill in the minimal layout.

 

So now I have a keyboard layout that I arrived at systematically and physically tested with a variety of songs. Feeling pretty good about this right now!

 

Side note, the more I play with the Hayden keyboard the more I appreciate it. It's far more intuitive than it has any right to be.

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40 minutes ago, Dashy said:

Alright, progress!

 

So, working off of the range I'm targeting (E2-B4/G3-E6) I removed all the sharps and flats and left only the white keys in that range, then went through a collection of songs I would like to be able to play and added the keys I needed (or preferred) to mime them on my mockup. I came up with a 63-key minimal layout:

image.png.9ff561d9ae10d6d7afd758629142b3ee.png

 

Kind'a weird how that F#4 on the left never came up... but either way, this is the minimum for comfortably playing my set of test songs. There are a couple keys I could drop and still play the songs, but I would need some weird stretching or fingering shifts that didn't really come naturally.

 

Now, this layout isn't quite chromatic, so I filled in the missing notes like so:

image.png.775ea98de4378fc539b2142f441d5d3a.png

 

D#6 on the right and Bb4 on the left can be a little bit of a stretch to reach, but my reasoning is that since they didn't come up in my test songs, thus probably won't come up as frequently as the other keys, they're less important to optimize for --it's important to me to have them, but I don't need to compromise anything else to have them in a better spot.

 

This layout has one fewer left-hand reed and four more right-hand reeds than the 65K @Pistachio Dreamer showed earlier in this thread, which given what I've learned about concertina size constraints sounds like a good L/R balance... to me, at least.

 

Here's the current mockup:

20220130_142816.thumb.jpg.3822e2f783caa731655d6be3c3eb49ce.jpg20220130_142801.thumb.jpg.f98631ef9ab7c347d71eca8ae82d1df3.jpg

 

I printed out another pegboard and some peg-mounted handrests, then stuck the two pegboards together with two pegs to get a very thin concertina. Black and white correspond to the colors of a piano keyboard, and blue is the extra notes I used to fill in the minimal layout.

 

So now I have a keyboard layout that I arrived at systematically and physically tested with a variety of songs. Feeling pretty good about this right now!

 

Side note, the more I play with the Hayden keyboard the more I appreciate it. It's far more intuitive than it has any right to be.

 

Have you looked at the antlers yet?

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