Dipper Anglo at auction

[Myrtle's cook]

Gardiner Holdgate have this rather attractive Anglo in their forthcoming sale. From the serial number I take it to be an early example, the pickup and RH air button perhaps being later additions(?).

 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/gardiner-houlgate/catalogue-id-srgard10202/lot-475fd65f-a7ae-407a-94aa-ade800abfb9e

 

(I have no connection with this sale - but thought others might be interested)

[Paul Hurst]

Thanks for the heads-up, hope it goes to a good home.

[Clive Thorne]

Doesn't say what keys it's in.

[hjcjones]

Just of of curiosity I've been running the figures. If I'm reading it correctly, the purchaser will pay 20% VAT and 32.34% buyer's commission on the hammer price, so more than half as much again.  If it sells at the top of the guide range (£3000) that means the buyer hands over £4570.20, which is probably not excessive for a Dipper in decent condition (assuming it is).   

 

However the seller doesn't receive that £3000, they will have to pay seller's commission of 15% + VAT.  The seller ends up with £2460 for an instrument they might have sold privately for £4500 or more.  The auctioneer will take more than £1250 net of VAT in commission for putting it on a website, and a few minutes of bidding in the auction room.

 

I think I've been in the wrong job all these years.

[Theo]

In an auction you normally only pay VAT on the buyers premium, not on the hammer price.  In this case the buyers premium is 22% so you would pay hammer price plus 26.4%.  Still a big chunk of money on top of the hammer price.

[pmca8888]

It is worth having a closer look at the detailed photos.....seems as if some "Rare Mod" has been made to this concertina.

[hjcjones]

Next to the price it says "Additional fees apply".  If you click on the question mark for more information it says:

 

Additional Fees:

Commissions*:	32.34% Inc.VAT/sales tax
VAT/sales tax on hammer:	20.00%

*Includes buyer's premium and online commission. For more information please read the auctioneer's T&Cs.

 

Whether or not VAT is payable will depend on the VAT status of the seller.  This suggests (if it is not an error) that the seller is VAT-registered, which is perhaps unusual but not impossible.  This is definitely something I would want to clarify if I were going to bid.  20% makes quite a difference.

 

If they are VAT-registered this would alter the amount they would receive from a private sale, where they would also have to charge VAT.  Nevertheless, the seller is paying a considerable price for selling at auction rather than privately.

 

I wonder how many sellers at auction understand that as well as paying seller's commission they also bear the buyer's commission too, since it reduces the amount the buyer is able to bid?

 

 

 

[Theo]

37 minutes ago, hjcjones said:

Next to the price it says "Additional fees apply".  If you click on the question mark for more information it says:

 

Ah, I missed that!   I was looking at "T&Cs & Important info"

[Alex West]

I think the maximum of 32.34% includes online commission and VAT and only applies to online bids.  I would assume that the VAT is applicable to Gardiner Houlgate's business, not the current owner.

 

Absentee bids and telephone bids are also permitted so the buyer's premium in those cases would be 22% + VAT = 26.4%.

 

Still a chunk of change but fairly standard for auction houses and maybe worth checking to confirm if one was intending to bid. 

 

Alex West

[hjcjones]

That seems to be a hefty additional premium just for bidding online.  Even if a buyer pays the lower rate of commission this will still be nearly £800 on a hammer price of £3000. Add 20% VAT as well and they are looking at paying nearly £1400 on top of the figure they actually bid.

 

The VAT is confusing.  The terms I referred to before clearly state that 20% VAT is payable on the hammer price.  That is nothing to do with Gardiner Houlgate - they are only agents for the seller. They must charge VAT on their services that they provide themselves ie their fees and commission, but if VAT is payable on the sale itself that can only be because the seller is VAT-registered.  However it's a further trap for the unwary, since it isn't very apparent that VAT will be charged until you start digging.   

 

Taking commission from both sides of the deal is, as you say, standard for auction houses.   There may be cases where they earn it.  There are some situations where auctions really are the best way to go.  One is where it is genuinely difficult to value the item, but I don't think that can apply here.  Another is where the item is expected to generate a lot of interest, and with these a good auctioneer can really drive up the price.  However, again I'm not sure that's the case here.  It's true that Dippers are highly sought-after, and this one may well attract a lot of interest, but the auction house doesn't seem to be doing much to push it.  They've provided only a brief, even perfunctory,  description, and not even mentioned important details such as what keys it is in. I wonder whether they really understand what they've got?

[Cogsey]

Fascinating. Why does it have an exhaust pipe?

[Takayuki YAGI]

16 minutes ago, Cogsey said:

Fascinating. Why does it have an exhaust pipe?

Not an exhaust pipe, but audio output jack for electric pickup, I suppose.

[hjcjones]

It's just gone for £3400.00  With buyer's commission at 20% + VAT the buyer will pay £4279.60, which I guess is a fair price for a Dipper, possibly even a bargain.  The seller will receive £2788.00 after paying seller's commission at 15% + VAT, which doesn't look so good.

 

There are sometimes good reasons to sell at auction, for example where an item is very difficult to value. Another reason is where there is a legal duty to demonstrate that the seller has obtained the best price, for example when a mortgagee sells a foreclosed property.  A possibility here is that it may have been sold by executors of a will who needed to demonstrate full transparency to the beneficiaries.

 

Another reason is where the item is expected to attract a lot of interest which might result in a bidding frenzy - bidders can sometimes get carried away.  This one certainly attracted a fair amount of interest, and the auction was being watched worldwide with at least one bidder on this from Ireland.  However whilst this quickly brought in bids it didn't get out of hand.  The eventual price the purchaser will pay looks fair, but after the commissions are deducted the amount the seller actually receives doesn't look so attractive.  I can't help thinking they might have done better through a private sale.

 

I'm still unclear whether VAT will also be payable on the hammer price.  The Saleroom's website shown in the original link says it should be, Gardiner Houlgate's own website is silent on VAT. I believe it should depend on the VAT status of the seller, and I would expect this is a private seller so I would assume not.  If it is payable, the buyer will pay an additional £680.

 

 

[Johnny]

I had a look at it.  It was originally advertised as "probably a C/G" instrument (this note was removed late yesterday) but it is actually a G/D.  In very good condition and a surprisingly soft sounding/quiet sounding concertina.  It was owned by a Steven Samwell who played in bands around the New Forrest, now sadly departed RIP.

[Zak vdV]

Hammer Price:

Auctioneer has chosen not to publish the price of this lot

Auction Date:

10 Dec 2021 10:00 GMT

Auctioneer:

Gardiner Houlgate

[skippy]

3500 pounds or somewhere close to that . The live auction had it listed and I can’t remember the actual price but it was in the 3 thousand bracket 

[Stephen Chambers]

15 hours ago, Zak vdV said:

Hammer Price:

Auctioneer has chosen not to publish the price of this lot

Auction Date:

10 Dec 2021 10:00 GMT

Auctioneer:

Gardiner Houlgate

 

Only your link is to the "the-saleroom.com" website, not Gardiner Houlgate's.

 

The auctioneer's own website lists prices realised, £3,400 in this case: https://auctions.gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/catalogue/lot/08c1854fb60b02fd8866697280c9feb6/63b778f7668dabe928d3800924a99077/musical-instruments-lot-1534/

 

[hjcjones]

See my post above.  £3400.00 + buyer's commission of £897.60 incl VAT. If the winner was bidding through The Saleroom or one of the other platforms, rather than in the room or on Gardiner Houlgate's own website, there may be additional commission on top of that.

 

The seller also has to pay commission so they won't receive anything close to the figure the buyer paid.  However it appears that the previous owner has passed away, and if this was sold by his executors they may have felt obliged to sell by auction to show complete transparency, although they would probably have got more from a private sale.

 

The auction house has made £1258.00 in commission, so a good result for them.

 

It was interesting to watch the auction, but I was able to resist the temptation to bid myself. I hope it's gone to a good home, it seems to be a good instrument.