Replacing springs.. what is the secret?

[alex_holden]

P.B. has always been fine for me - they work well and I haven't had one break in service yet. The only time I've broken one while forming it is when I accidentally bent the hook in the wrong direction, then tried to correct it by bending it back 180º.

 

I looked into ordering a large coil direct from the manufacturer thinking they would give me a bulk discount, but they actually quoted me a surprisingly high price - the tiny packs from A J Reeves work out slightly cheaper per metre.

[d.elliott]

I bought a miniscule weight of the wire, or so I thought, and ended up with enough to circumnavigate the globe! I shall be leaving some to my daughters in my will. What they will do with it, I just don't know. I little does go a long way

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by d.elliott

[Alex West]

I bought some half-hard brass wire of the appropriate thickness in a small quantity from a harpsichord parts supplier and it's served me well.  In retrospect, and in discussion with others, perhaps I should have ordered fully hard spring wire from the same source (which I think was an option) but the half-hard makes good springs with an appropriate stiffness/resistance (must be a better term than this!)

 

Alex West

[RogerT]

On 1/8/2022 at 9:48 AM, d.elliott said:

I bought a miniscule weight of the wire, or so I thought, and ended up with enough to circumnavigate the globe! I shall be leaving some to my daughters in my will. What they will do with it, I just don't know. I little does go a long way

 

 

Hi Dave, what kind of a spring making jig and or process do you use? ……actually I’ve now found other posts with spring making jig etc.

Edited October 30, 2022 by RogerT
Mod

[Squeezejoy21]

Can I use accordion springs for Stagi concertina? I can’t find them to purchase . Thank you 

[alex_holden]

14 hours ago, Squeezejoy21 said:

Can I use accordion springs for Stagi concertina? I can’t find them to purchase . Thank you 

 

Try contacting Concertina Italia: https://www.concertineitalia.it/en/

[seanc]

Fwiw…

 I picked up a vape coil winder. It is not great. But it does the coil portion well.

I’d definitely like something like Alex has that has the drum with a hook on it. But, so far have not been able to source that.

 

using this you need to do a right angle and then the hook by hand. So lacking consistency there so far.

 

 

 

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I have a Hohner branded Anglo , I later found was made by Stagi in Italy .. I have recently had a weak spring  ( torsion spring) on one button ( G natural left side middle row).. and got fed up of trying to find any to buy. So I made my own.

How did I do it, the answer is in a very funny ad hoc manner, but it worked!

Basically I took a small block of solid hardwood, and hammered into it a panel pin, of about the size the coil spring would go round, only one nail hammered in.( Head removed on panel pin).

Next, I took a length of fine piano wire ( uncoiled).. and cut a small length with little fine plyers.

I kept the removed spring from concertina to use for reference, and proceeded to wrap the wire around the panel pin, about three times, leaving extra length ( to clip off later on)..

I bent the tiny hooked end to same size as specimen one I kept, and clipped off excess wire. ( Leaving a bit extra in case I needed to make future adjustments.

The difficult part is getting the fine spring back inside, but I managed it..

And yes it has worked fine!

So, a block of wood, length of fine piano wire ( uncoiled,).

And panel pin ( with head removed).

And there you are!

It may sound hilarious but it's better tension on that note now than befiorehand., So proof is in the "pudding".. as they say🌝🌝🌝

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by SIMON GABRIELOW
Spelling error.

[alex_holden]

13 hours ago, seanc said:

 I picked up a vape coil winder. It is not great. But it does the coil portion well.

I’d definitely like something like Alex has that has the drum with a hook on it. But, so far have not been able to source that.

 

using this you need to do a right angle and then the hook by hand. So lacking consistency there so far.

 

I also bend the right angle and the hook by hand & eye with jeweller's snipe nose and round nose pliers. The winding machine just helps with winding the coil and measuring how long the 'tails' should be. I made a batch of about 120 springs in 2 1/2 hours yesterday afternoon, so they must take me slightly over a minute each.

 

Incidentally when I'm building an action I sometimes find I need to make odd custom springs to reach past some obstacle that wouldn't be possible with a standard spring. I also frequently reshape the top arm slightly as I'm fitting them, and sometimes for particularly awkward ones I'll fit a little U shaped staple to hold the bottom arm at an exact angle so it can't swivel sideways and collide with something. The one in the bottom left corner of this photo is an example of one of those tricky ones:

 

[SteveS]

Alex - I like the action arm origami 😂

[seanc]

so. I have made a few sprigs so far. So far so good.

A few take away so far...

 

the "stock" spring I sourced from BB were ok. these were stainess. all of them LH and RH were all made the same way. Meaning the L is on the left, coil center and the on right. The hook either hooks above the coil (lh) or off to the right (rh).  

 

In the 55b it si VERY crowded, There were a few times where the stick springs just did not really work. And after installing they were just not stiff enough. I have been replacing these with My springs.

 

i have also been these as I go. I have found that reversing the config, with the Hook on the right and the arm on the left has come in very handy and makes it go much easier. I have also found several instances where having a substantially shorter hook, and a longer spring arm has worked well.

 

The result thus far is (to me)  substantially improved action. The stiffer (newer) springs make for a much faster action. And also, the newer springs are making the height of the buttons much more uniform.

Edited February 20, 2023 by seanc

[Richard Mellish]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:29 AM, alex_holden said:

 

I also bend the right angle and the hook by hand & eye with jeweller's snipe nose and round nose pliers. The winding machine just helps with winding the coil and measuring how long the 'tails' should be. I made a batch of about 120 springs in 2 1/2 hours yesterday afternoon, so they must take me slightly over a minute each.

 

Incidentally when I'm building an action I sometimes find I need to make odd custom springs to reach past some obstacle that wouldn't be possible with a standard spring. I also frequently reshape the top arm slightly as I'm fitting them, and sometimes for particularly awkward ones I'll fit a little U shaped staple to hold the bottom arm at an exact angle so it can't swivel sideways and collide with something. The one in the bottom left corner of this photo is an example of one of those tricky ones:

 

I notice that some of the springs in that instrument bear on their levers about halfway between the pivot and the button, and others very near to the button. Does that mean that different strengths of spring are needed to provide the same button pressure?

[alex_holden]

18 minutes ago, Richard Mellish said:

I notice that some of the springs in that instrument bear on their levers about halfway between the pivot and the button, and others very near to the button. Does that mean that different strengths of spring are needed to provide the same button pressure?

Ideally I try to keep a fairly consistent distance from the button to the spring, but that doesn’t work as well with very short or long levers, and sometimes it isn’t practical for access reasons. I don’t make different strength springs, I manage to get reasonable consistency in button force by varying the spring preload. The exception is that on 1” diameter Anglo air button pads, I use two springs instead of one. 

[seanc]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:45 AM, Richard Mellish said:

I notice that some of the springs in that instrument bear on their levers about halfway between the pivot and the button, and others very near to the button. Does that mean that different strengths of spring are needed to provide the same button pressure?

I can not knowledgeably answer this. But looking at what I am dealing with. The orig springs are absolutely not uniform. Some that I have seen actually have an extra wind on the coil most have 2 winds ending at a right angels, a few have a 3D or more than 2 winds. I suspect that each was made specifically for each button. If standard is hook at 3:00 and bend arm is at 12:00. Many are hook at 3:00 wound around twice then ending at 2:00 and then bent upwards and many canted left or right. To follow the arm.
 

Maybe they knew that some would need a extra wind to compensate for various factors.

I am not sure how an extra wind or part of a wind affects tension. Maybe somebody knowledgeable can weigh in?

i have not measured many of the old springs. I am assuming that all used the same gauge wire.

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by seanc

[alex_holden]

3 hours ago, seanc said:

I am not sure how an extra wind or part of a wind affects tension. Maybe somebody knowledgeable can weigh in?

 

Adding an extra turn to the coil will make the spring less stiff. Shortening the top arm will make it stiffer. Perhaps there were locations where they needed the top arm to be shorter because there wasn't room for a standard spring, so they added an extra turn to make up for it.

[Clive Thorne]

Winding springs is easy.

 

First get your self some mirrors, then a source of smoke - a cigarette of cigar might suffice, but a full blown smoke machine would be better. If you also have some "snake oil" then better still.

 

To quote Spinal Tap "I'm joking, of course".

[Thy28293]

Hello

thanks to this thread here on C.net, I decided to catch some ""phosphor bronze "wire :

cf D.Elliot

mine is 0.65mm wire (not found 0.60...), ""phosphor bronze" piano string wire

 

https://www.pianoteile.com/public/produkt_artikel.aspx?language=de&artsnr=123122&objid=A123122&page=4&red=pry

 

I suppose it 's the same german supplier as D. Elliott told about..

 

Easy to work with - on my Lachenal model,  the springs are very short : I decided to work the wire only with pliers (round nose/ jewelry pliers..), 'in the air" ; I didn't make a "jig" for that, even if not so easy to put some tension only with pliers.

I first tried to make springs with 0.9 mm (to soft !)  brass : not stiff enough at all !!!

 

I had to make some new springs : replacing 1 old spring I broke myself (.sorry..), and others , more recent replaced springs (10 years old ?) I was not satisfied with.

Old original springs (1888) seem to be made of brass.

My intention is : the original old springs will stay in place until they break out / become very weak.

My  first 'setting/ un setting"  tool was a screw driver. I quickly changed for a wooden (flat) stick - keep with you some wooden coffee stirrer, flat wooden so called "disposable" spoons/forks...and  cut an end with a "V" shape notch.

Thy.

[SIMON GABRIELOW]

I made a spring recently with also a very primitive setup consisting of piano wire coiled in similar manner, and the'jig' I used to form it round was simply a wood block,with a thin panel pin knocked in, on which I wound the wire around before clipping it off to required length afterwards.And it worked!!!😊😊