Baritone-treble

[Wendy M. Grossman]

Anyone own one of these rare beasts? What do you play on it?

 

wg

[d.elliott]

Hello Wendy.

 

It depends how the instrument is designed/ set up.

 

There is always confusion about whether the concertina is set up as a baritone extended up all the way through the treble range, or is a true treble extended down through the baritone range. Whilst you have the same number of notes, covering the same range, they are very different instruments to play. Taking a basic treble, and the notes 'G' in different octaves. The lowest 'G' is on the bottom on the RH Side, the next 'G' up is on the LH Side (2nd line up on the treble clef) the next 'G' up is on the RH side. The octaves are on alternative sides as you move up the instrument's keyboard. 

 

If you have the treble extended down to Baritone the 'G' on 2nd line of the treble clef  is still on the LH side, indeed all the treble notes are in the same places, however the baritone octave continues down below them with the lowest 'G' on the LH Side. This concertina is best played as a straight treble but with the additional notes below used for forming chords, and melody support. To play the concertina as a baritone is often played, off the treble clef, you will find that you do not have a transposing instrument and you will have to learn a different fingering.

 

If you have a Baritone extended to treble, then the 'G', 2nd line up on the treble clef, is on the RH side, the treble's low 'G' note is in it's place on the LH side and the very low 'G' is the low position on the RH Side. It is a fully transposing instrument playing everything one octave down. It can be used in three ways, in an ensemble played off the treble clef, song support (best for the female voice) or you can learn yet another different fingering playing off the bass clef. Often baritones are not extended, indeed they have a short keyboard which discards the  top octave or s, to save weight and allow bigger reeds to be used on the bottom end. If your concertina is a barry extended up then you have the same capability as any treble extended up, but 1 octave lower, loosing the capability to annoy dogs and sound engineers.

 

I had a double action baritone, 42 key, which I sold to buy a 48k baritone single action. I went single action for playing speed and weight saving, I like to play parts in ensembles or bands, as well as to accompany singing . I doubt if I will ever use the top end on my 48k concertina very much. 

 

I hope that this makes sense to you. can you confirm which variant you have please

[Geoff Wooff]

I  have owned  a  Baritone-Treble  56k  Wheatstone  Aeola  for  the  last  15  years.  It is  my  usual  'play  at  home'  instrument  and  I  use  it  in the way  described  by   David  Elliot,   as  a   Treble  with  notes  extended  down  a further octave  to  use for  harmonies  and  chords  below  the  Treble  melody.  So,  larger  'arrangements'  are possible.

 

The  way  my instrument  is  set  up, and  probably  was  designed in that  way,  there is  a lovely  balance  and  the  lower  notes   do  not  drown  the  mid  and upper ranges  when  used in combination.

 

I  play  anything  I  fancy  but  small  keyboard  arrangements are  nice,  from  Bach  to  Ragtime, through Irish, English and Scottish  Trad  to  Jazz.  I'd not  say I'm  any good at  any of  them  but ......

[Wendy M. Grossman]

Thanks for the comments. The one I'm looking at is a Lachenal edeophone baritone-treble in excellent condition with the low G on the LH side and the G# next to it replaced by a low F.

 

I also have a Wheatstone aeola tenor-treble, which I'm used to singing with and playing some tunes on. I think of the baritone-treble as a superset of the tenor-treble. I love the low notes, but thinking through the keys I sing in (a lot of Bb!) I'm not sure how much I'll be able to use them. So I'm wondering how much use I'd get out of it. Hence my question what others like to do with theirs.

 

wg

[Geoff Wooff]

For  a lower  pitched  chordal  accompaniment  to  your  voice  I  would have  thought  the  standard  Baritone  could  be  more useful  but,  as you are  used to  the Tenor- Treble  then  the  Baritone-Treble  might  serve  you  for  those few  extra  notes  to  complete  a   chord or  run.

 

Long  stretch  finger  movements  are  necessary  when  playing  melody  and  chords  together  and  the  thumb strap  position  on  the BT  is  further  forward  but  aligns  with  the  keyboard  one step  lower down the  scale.  This  causes a  finger position adjustment  when  swaping  from  a standard  Treble, Tenor Treble  or Baritone.

[d.elliott]

Hi Wendy,

 

you have a treble extended down to baritone, not a baritone extended up through treble. You are right, you can really only use the barry/ treble as you use the tenor/treble. but with much richer chords. I might suggest that your lowest comfortable note is around the A below middle 'C' up two octaves. The barry range gives you the root note of the 'Bb' key one octave below your lower vocal range this will give you a lot more scope for filling in notes without a muddy sound of voice and note being too close together. As Geoff says, there is a compromise on the location of the thumb straps against the standard treble, assuming you play standard treble as well.

 

If you have not bought the instrument yet, do consider the propensity of Lachenal instruments, especially Edeophones, and even more especially bigger framed Edeophone to suffer from action wear. Check for unevenness on some key heights, and for odd keys that appear to be on a slight slant. If these are associated with keys where their action arm is cranked around obstacles between key and pad.......... never good news.    

[Wendy M. Grossman]

Thanks for the tip.  If the instrument doesn't have this issue, is it likely to develop it later through playing?

 

wg

[Tiposx]

I have a Morse English system baritone, which is laid out like a standard treble but sounds an octave lower. I play Irish music with friends or alone. It can be played at the speed required, and adds richness to the group sound.

I like to play it to give my ears a rest from the treble range sometimes.

[Wendy M. Grossman]

Geoff: I'm inclined to think you are right that I'd be better off with an instrument that sounds an octave lower than the one I'm contemplating. Or maybe not. I remain confused.

 

Thanks.

 

wg

Edited October 25, 2021 by Wendy M. Grossman

[Geoff Wooff]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:39 PM, Wendy M. Grossman said:

Geoff: I'm inclined to think you are right that I'd be better off with an instrument that sounds an octave lower than the one I'm contemplating. Or maybe not. I remain confused.

 

Thanks.

 

wg

Thinking about  this  Wendy,  is  there not  someone  on  this  forum  wanting to  sell  a Baritone  in Bb  ?  It  is  an octave lower  than  a treble  but  also  the  middle two  rows  give  Bb  instead of  C.

[Wendy M. Grossman]

I think I might struggle with a baritone in Bb. I grew up with classical piano, and the mapping of white keys to center rows and black keys to outer rows is pretty strong in my head. I suppose I'd adapt...

 

wg

[SteveS]

8 hours ago, Wendy M. Grossman said:

I think I might struggle with a baritone in Bb. I grew up with classical piano, and the mapping of white keys to center rows and black keys to outer rows is pretty strong in my head. I suppose I'd adapt...

 

wg

There was a baritone in Bb for sale on this forum in the last 10 days or so.

[Geoff Wooff]

9 hours ago, Wendy M. Grossman said:

I think I might struggle with a baritone in Bb. I grew up with classical piano, and the mapping of white keys to center rows and black keys to outer rows is pretty strong in my head. I suppose I'd adapt...

 

wg

It  can  be played  just  like a  normal  EC  but  all the  notes are one tone lower.  

As  Steve  says  there  was, ( is )  one  for  sale  ,in the UK... just  look  through the    Buy & Sell  forum  here.  I think it is on the second or third  page.

[Little John]

On 10/22/2021 at 9:17 PM, Wendy M. Grossman said:

I also have a Wheatstone aeola tenor-treble, which I'm used to singing with and playing some tunes on. I think of the baritone-treble as a superset of the tenor-treble. I love the low notes, but thinking through the keys I sing in (a lot of Bb!) I'm not sure how much I'll be able to use them.

 

Given this comment, I'd suggest you consider having the low D# replaced with Bb. That might give you everything you need. A good repairer could either lower the existing reeds by weighting the tips, or source (or make) new ones so that you can keep the originals. Your Wheatstone is probably a better instrument than the Lachenal, and smaller and lighter too than a baritone or baritone-treble.

[Wendy M. Grossman]

Interesting suggestion. Thanks.

 

btw, here's the layout of the instrument I'm looking at, top to bottom (for this purpose I have not cared whether the note as described as # or b):

 

C# C  E  Eb

F#  F  A  G#

Bb  B  D  Eb

Eb  E  G  G#

G#  A  C  C#

Eb  D   F   F#

F    G   B   Bb

 

wg

Edited October 27, 2021 by Wendy M. Grossman

[Geoff Wooff]

4 hours ago, Wendy M. Grossman said:

Interesting suggestion. Thanks.

 

btw, here's the layout of the instrument I'm looking at, top to bottom (for this purpose I have not cared whether the note as described as # or b):

 

C# C  E  Eb

F#  F  A  G#

Bb  B  D  Eb

G#  A  C  C#

Eb  D   F   F#

F    G   B   Bb

 

wg

Have  you  missed out  a  horizontal  row  half way  up  ?

[Wendy M. Grossman]

Argh, yes. Edited to fix. (And that is of course the left side)

 

wg

Edited October 27, 2021 by Wendy M. Grossman

[Nigel Champion]

Concertina.Net proves yet again to provide a wealth of information.  Many thanks everyone for this discussion especially David Elliott (and Geoff Crabb in a related thread).

 

What I thought was a Wheatstone 56-key Baritone because of its size ( 7 1/4 inch octagonal) proves to be a Tenor/Treble.

 

Nigel