My Beef With Classical Music

[Mark Evans]

Bob, I'm sorry about the neighbor...she's loosing out. There is a lot of insecurity from "classical" players and singers. The system is very old school and insanely critical (thus the imperfect fit for me).

 

At my 50th birthday me darlin' threw a big jam party and invited all the bluegrass bums I knew. One of the fiddlers brought along her bass at Lady D's request. My diva picked up that bass and made it walk the dog! Ah-ooo! I've got pictures somewhere to prove it.

 

I hear what Boney is saying. There are some who are comfortable crossing musical lines and it doesn't feel like a seperate thing. Personally, I'm more comfortable where perfection is not the goal. I've learned to follow the rules within the boundries I'm capable of ahearing to. However when a situation degenerates to the point where someone asks you "what's more important with a dotted quarter note, the dot or the note?" Then it's time ta' go...ta pub.

Edited May 7, 2005 by Mark Evans

[Ken_Coles]

I was in a brass quintet for nine years. We organized it out of a summer community band we were all in. We played at least a hundred public performances (many for free) and rehearsed hundreds of times, mostly at my house the last five years. It was musical connections, good fellowship, the whole thing. And we did some jazz that was not notated beyond lead sheets. Saying classical music has no chances to connect just shows lack of exposure to such opportunities, which you have to find/make for yourself, like most music if you are an adult amateur. I just moved twice in a year, and I'm still making the new connections. But they will come with work. Classical concerts for which money is charged don't represent all of classical music and musicians any more than Riverdance represents all of Irish musical activity or the Country Bear Jamboree (or whatever it is called) at Disney World represents all of country/old time music.

[Greg Jowaisas]

I've enjoyed following this discussion. I think Boney identified some of the reasons

musicians fall into one camp or the other but I'm glad Ken pointed out that there can be exceptions. I'll add one anecdote.

 

I do many traditional music presentations in schools (Hmm! sounds contradictory already!). I was at a well heeled Country Day School Academy and found that they had a string program. I was delighted and surprised to find the violin teacher using the old-time/bluegrass tune "Cripple Creek" as part of their repertoire.

The string teacher offered this explanation: "Only 1 out of 10 of my students will actively continue to play their violins in a classical setting into their adult life. I thought that more of my students would continue to play if they were comfortable with folk and other kinds of music in addition to the classics."

 

To which I said Alleluihah! and walked away knowing I had met a wise teacher.

 

Regards,

 

Greg

[David Barnert]

Saying classical music has no chances to connect just shows lack of exposure to such opportunities, which you have to find/make for yourself, like most music if you are an adult amateur.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

 

Any suggestion that there is no dialogue involved in playing classical music reveals a lack of understanding of what classical music is all about. It's all interplay, listening and communicating, tossing ideas back and forth, parry and response. Listen to what I do with this next phrase and show me how you can build on it.

 

It can be as satisfying as any other form of intercourse, musical or otherwise.

 

Hmm...never been called a rascal before...

My wife occasionally gets called "Rascal." But then, her name is Julie Raskin.

[Helen]

Greg,

 

That is awesome! What a wise teacher. Getting kids involved in a way that they will want to stay involved. Hats off.

 

Great thread. I am enjoying it. Just goes to show if what you want isn't out there, organize it yourself.

 

Helen

[David Barnert]

I was at a well heeled Country Day School Academy and found that they had a string program.  I was delighted and surprised to find the violin teacher using the old-time/bluegrass tune "Cripple Creek" as part of their repertoire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I once heard a recording by (get this...) Gunther Schüller conducting the New England Conservatory Country Fiddle Band. It included titles like "Soldier's Joy" and "Flop Eared Mule" and "Fisher's Hornpipe." It was horrible. It was like you could hear the violinists (I would hardly call them "fiddlers") sitting up straight.

[Helen]

Oh, ugh.

[Mark Evans]

Well said Ken and David.

 

Stephen Mills and I were talking about Houston (I lived there for a couple of years) and we realized that both of us had frequented an Ice House were all types of musicians performed.

 

A most memorable evening for me was an "amateur" group playing Schubert's "Trout" quintet. It was wonderful and certainly a conversation. The theme and variation section was a tour de force of friendly one-ups-manship!

 

David just seeing the name of the conductor you mention makes me shiver (and not in a good way). Any time someone hands you a small book of preamble notes before the first rehearsal to lay down the rules of engagement, you should expect a one sided conversation and very little music making to my taste.

[Samantha]

You can't really perform Shakespeare and have a conversation at the same time. It might be fun trying to mix them, but it'll probably end up seeming like a gimmick, or it'll really be one with trappings of the other grafted on.

This is where your analogy falls down, Boney - no-one is suggesting trying to play classical and folk both at once. However, it is perfectly possible to be a good conversationalist and a good actor, and I believe it is possible to be good at both folk and classical genres of music (I'm not claiming this ability for myself, though ).

To return to Jeff's original point - it looks as though the link offered by David Barnert here is the way to go.

Samantha

[Robin Harrison]

Jeff...............I couln't agree more with your posting.I listen to a lot of classical music but am the humblest of players. Nonetheless,the pleasure I get from playing simple Bach and Mozart arrangements for two people is huge.It would sound like crap to other people but so what. I've collected a lot of music for two players,mainly easy violin.

I've had so little luck finding other players, I'm now starting to record one part on mini-disc and then accompany myself. Not what you'd call a session,but still fun.I use two treble parts at the moment but will soon start doing baritone and bass parts too.

Man, wouldn't having a classical jam in a pub ( complete with music) be a riot !!

Regards Robin

[Brian Arsenault]

I agree with David regarding the dialogue that takes place during the playing of classical music. When things are going well, there are ideas bouncing around all over the place, and when you're playing with people that are both receptive to what's going on and also contribute to the mix, then it's the same feeling as when you're at a session and everyone is in that groove. Then there are other times when you are not really "playing together" as much as you are just "playing near each other." But it's also different if you're playing in a small chamber group or in a large orchestra. You still have to listen and participate in an orchestra but you also have to play well with others , if you will.

 

Since New England Conservatory has appeared a couple of times in this thread, I thought I'd add a story. When I was at NEC we would sometimes get together on Friday nights for "Drinking Quartets." Two would go get beer and the other two would go get armfuls of music from the library. We would read and drink and ... well ... drink more. Did wonders for our sight-reading. It sounds funny but we found the best way to get better at sight-reading was to practice it. The quartets exapanded to sextets, octets, and then we invited other friends that played wind and brass instruments. It was a blast. Admittedly we had a rather high concentration of musicians per sqare inch there on Huntington Ave, but it looks like that link to ACMP would help you get a group together.

 

And please, no viola jokes.

[Mark Evans]

Brian! Tallahassee? I went to high school there and then FSU. It is indeed a small world. I promise to refrain from any viola/AC jokes although several come to mind .

[Boney]

This is where your analogy falls down, Boney - no-one is suggesting trying to play classical and folk both at once. However, it is perfectly possible to be a good conversationalist and a good actor, and I believe it is possible to be good at both folk and classical genres of music (I'm not claiming this ability for myself, though  ).

My point is that playing classical music in a traditional session situation IS like trying to do both at once. When you take the trappings of one (say a traditional "session") and mix it with another (reading classical charts), you get an uncomfortable mix. Classical music doesn't work with random conglomerations of instruments each adding personal variations and improvising occasional harmonies. That doesn't mean pals can't get together and read charts, just that it wouldn't be that similar to a session. And people can improvise off classical music, but then it's really not either genre.

 

I still think it's VERY rare for someone to really fit in in both genres (which isn't a point the analogy was meant to cover). I've heard many very good classically trained violinists in sessions or jams, and all but a very few stick out like a sore thumb. There are many people who can competently play both forms, but extremely few who can really pull both off "like a native."

 

I have seem some people learn one instrument classically, then switch to a very different instrument and learn it in a traditional folk setting. It's more common for them to be able to fit in both genres, at least with the instrument they learned in each genre. Even then, it takes a person with a very good ear and the ability to really work at the differences.

 

There are also quite a few people that are equally mediocre at both...but, that's not exactly what I'm talking about.

 

I do agree there's a "dialog" that goes on in playing classical music, but it's not what I'd call a "conversation" in the same sense improvising together is. It's more of an exchange of energies, or a communicated mutual understanding. Both are great, but they are different.

Edited May 8, 2005 by Boney

[Samantha]

Point taken Boney.

Maybe Brian has the answer in his post? Perhaps for a bunch of classical musicians to get closer to the feeling of a "session" they need plenty of beer and the ability to be fluent sightreaders, just as for a traditional session to work well the players need the ability to be fluent in the appropriate genre (Irish, English, Hungarian, whatever).

While correct instrumentation is more of a requirement for classical music, a traditional Irish session with five guitars, two bodhrans and one penny whistle will also be off kilter I suspect! And in a classical "play through get together" you can get away with some substitutions of the proper line up, so long as the pitch range of the instruments match/overlap and/or the transposition issues are dealt with. This may require some planning ahead, but that won't take away from the spontaneity of the music making.

Surely the main point of this thread is that we enjoy music making, in a variety of ways, and long may it continue. I don't know where I heard this quote, but perhaps this thread is the best place to share it with you: "Music is far too important to leave to the professionals" .

Samantha

[Robin Madge]

If you want to hear the difference between Classical and Folk look out De dannon playing "The arrival of the Queen of Sheba in Galway".

This is almost the pure classical music as written but so very folky in presentation. The change of minute variations from the beat and delicate slurs change it so much.

(It's also written in Bb and comes out well as a duet between English and Bb/F anglo.)

Robin Madge

[Mark Evans]

At present I am pouring over a recording of a Radio 3 broadcast from Newcastle (it is mentioned in the Dancing Concertist thread). The focus of the project was to suggest that there was a blurred line between what we would call "classical" and "folk" music in the early to mid 1800's.

 

There is a slight difference in energy between the two groups of musicians, one more reserved, the other with an energy that suggests anything could happen. The fun occurs when the two interact. It raises as many questions as it answers as does the audience reaction.

 

The suprise for me was the transformation of the soprano. There was certain presentation of style and attitude on English folk material set by Beethoven and scored for forte piano, violin, viola and cello which was beautiful but somehow reserved in presentation.

 

Then a song set by Haydn to a Robert Burns poem (a bit salty about a "dirty hussy") accompanyed by EC and ensemble. Wow! The Scotish soprano seems freed from constraint urged on no doubt by the EC and owing perhaps to a native source. Haydn set folks songs sparcely(vocal line, violin line, viola line and a figured bass line as opposed to Beethoven fully realized score). He leaves a lot of room to wiggle and wiggle they did to great effect.

Edited May 8, 2005 by Mark Evans

[JimLucas]

...it is perfectly possible to be a good conversationalist and a good actor, and I believe it is possible to be good at both folk and classical genres of music.

My point is that playing classical music in a traditional session situation IS like trying to do both at once. When you take the trappings of one (say a traditional "session") and mix it with another (reading classical charts), you get an uncomfortable mix.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Y'mean like those folks who talk about bringing "the dots" to Irish sessions?

 

In fact, many kinds of "hybrids" are not only possible, but comfortably exist, even if most people haven't personally seen them. A great deal depends on what one -- one individual or one group -- considers important, i.e., which they feel are the "defining" properties and which are less important. It's important to be clear what you want to get out of your session/jam/gathering/group.

 

Are the particular note-for-note arrangements important, or do you want to be able to improvise around clasical tunes or "themes"? If the former, how would you feel about a concertina playing the violin or flute part? What about a mandolin, which can't "sustain" a note like those other three? Or an arrangement of Bach's 2-part inventions for two flutes, though in the original the parts match the ranges of violin and cello? If you want improvisation, do you mean the "improvisation" described here for Irish sessions, or something more like what jazz musicians do in their "jam sessions"?

 

Are food, drink, and/or conversation important aspects of what you're after? What about letting people who lack the necessary reading or improvisational skills join in as best they can? Are you just thinking about classical instrumental music, or also singing?

 

Do you want to just play through things -- either by sight-reading or from having gone over them first at home, -- or would you go through a piece several times in order to "learn" it? What about a classical "slow jam"... like a friend's "Largo Society", so named because no matter what the intended tempo, they always play it largo (slow)?

 

And saying "classical music" is as vague as saying "folk music". While there are more inclusive sessions, I think most are thought of as "Irish" or "bluegrass" or "English", etc. So maybe some folks would be attracted to a "Baroque" session and others to a "Romantic" one. Or maybe even classical sessions centered on individual composers, e.g., Schubert, Hayden, Brahms, Beethoven,...?

 

Jeff and others, the main thing is to find others who share your interest and with whom you can gain musical satisfaction. If you haven't already found them in the places you're used to looking, then you should expand your search. Rather than make assumptions, have you asked folks after a classical concert, "Gee, wouldn't it be fun to try to play some of that ourselves?" Have you asked folks at an Irish session whether they also play other kinds of music? What about people you know in non-musical connections? Have you tried asking them what their musical interests and experience might be? (Be sure to ask about what they've done in the past, rather than just what they're doing now. Many who have played -- or sung -- in the past would claim they'r no longer "good enough", yet they might be encouraged if they felt they could join others with a similar history.)

[Samantha]

All very good points, Jim, and ones which I second wholeheartedly.

Samantha