Anglo Vs English

[Mac Catháin]

Dear Folks... here's the deal. I am a professional musician, a lowly rhythm guitar player in a (shock) success folk band. So I know a bit about music. I want to buy a concertina for a 9 year old, who sits in with us on percussion right now. He's talented for sure. So I face this problem.... English or Anglo-German.

 

Now we play a lot of trad Gaelic music, but also trad Old Time Southern (USA) music, gypsy jazz, Beatle covers, and a lot of original music in many styles.

 

Now, after reading... it seems to my tiny brain that the English style concertina would be grand. Hold a note a long time etc., Then I know trad Irish players favour the Anglo-German one. But not all though, a few brave Gaels imbrace the English system. I understand the technical differences between the two types.

 

I need input. I am behind the curve on this. A virtual simpleton... I read about Simon Thoumire, he certainly seems to do well on the English concertina. It seems to my mind to have a lot of potential...

 

enlighten this poor lost soul....

 

Mise Barra Mac Catháin, ceoltoir le the Bush River Band.

[JimLucas]

Where are you located? The best and oft-repeated recommendation is to provide a situation in which the prospective *player* can try the different kinds and find which seems more natural to them. Some folks take naturally to the English (I was one of those), while others find the adjacent-notes-on-opposite-sides to be insane. The reverse can also be true with the in-and-out of the anglo.

 

Simon Thoumire is *great*, but he plays the English differently from anyone else. He *holds* it differently.

 

Other factors being equal, I would recommend the English over the anglo for the variety of music that you describe, and also considering that you have a *band*, with rhythm guitar, so you won't be expecting the 9-year-old to play melody and rhythm at the same time. With all notes in both directions, the English is more versatile harmonically. (You can do freat things with an anglo, but it can take some work to find harmonies that work musically *and* don't need notes that exist only in opposite directions.)

 

But while you're at it, check out the duets. The Hayden system is supported by a lot of enthusiasm, but a decent instrument is virtually impossible to get.. at any price. But the Crane (known also as Triumph) and Maccann systems are also quite versatile, and good vintage instruments still tend to be cheaper than even the English. The disadvantage with them is that there are no cheap *new* Cranes or Maccanns being made.

[Frank Edgley]

But not all though, a few brave Gaels imbrace the English system. .

MacCaithan: But not all though, a few brave Gaels imbrace the English system."

 

Perhaps over here, but I've never come across them in my 10 - 12 trips to Ireland. Both systems have their pros ans cons, but for Irish music it would do well for us to consider a similar comparison with accordions. There are some players of Irish music who play piano accordions, but the vast majority play button accordions. Like the English concertina, you can play Irish music on the more legato-prone instrument, and even get a similar effect, but few can, or do actually do it. There is a good reason why anglos and button accordions are preferred for Irish music, and that is the natural bounce and lift which comes almost automatically along with the instrument's "shortcomings". It can be done with piano accordions and English concertina, but there are enough other things to consider when trying to play Irish dance music (i.e. embellishments) without also having to add the rhythm inherent with "in-out" instruments.

Similarly, you can play chromatically, and in various different keys with an anglo, but few try to do it, for the same reason: it's much harder to do so, well.

Those of us at the Squeeze-in heard English concertinists, Matt Heumann and Ken Sweeney play Irish music well on their Enlish concertinas, but it is mostly a North American phenomenom. In Ireland, I don't know of a single top player who plays English. Who knows, though. Your son may be the first English playing "Noel Hill" of the 21st century.

[Mac Catháin]

First, go raibh mile maith agaibh to each person who has been kind enough to answer my humble request for enlightenment. Exactly what I needed, input from people who play.

 

I am amazed at the variety of concertinas out there. I know if I had to buy myself a new guitar (gods fobid) I'd go and get a Martin, have a set up job, and be ready to attack the stage again. With concertinas, I am out of my field for sure.

 

I do know of a couple of good Irish players who use the English system one, but quite right, most use the Anglo. I must admit I am leaning toward the English sytem... just as I can 'hear' in my head what it could do with all those sharps and flats. It would be cruel beyond belief to get one of each for a young player wouldn't it! He would curse me for life.

 

Any folk who would like to suggest makes... please do so.

 

Mise Mac Catháin

[Eric Root]

Sorry, I couldn't get the quote mechanism to allow inserting comments into the quote, so here it is more manually:

 

But not all though, a few brave Gaels imbrace the English system. .

 

Perhaps over here, but I've never come across them in my 10 - 12 trips to Ireland.

 

Frank, this should only be a consideration if Mac is playing in a strict Irish "pure-drop" band, where it will be important for social cohesion to saddle yourself with the exact same advantages and limitations as your compatriots. Scots and Shetlanders like the English concertina just fine, so if you are in an American band that plays all sorts of Irish, British, and American trad music or a contradance band or something, the "it must be an anglo" argument is right out the window.

 

[Frank]

Both systems have their pros ans cons, but for Irish music it would do well for us to consider a similar comparison with accordions.

 

Actually, in all due respect, this comparison is so dissimilar to the situation between Englishes and anglos as to serve no purpose other than to justify a purchase already made. It also does not become more true with frequent repetition, an experiment which has already been made ad nauseam. An English concertina is so similar in weight to an anglo that the same level and degree of bellows work is possible for both, limited somewhat by the difference in methods of holding. By contrast, even a small piano accordion is a lot bigger than a button accordion, so the difference in trying to move the bellows is significant. In other words, Englishes and anglos differ by the push pull business, piano and button accordions by that _plus_ a large difference in weight.

 

[Frank]

There are some players of Irish music who play piano accordions, but the vast majority play button accordions. Like the English concertina, you can play Irish music on the more legato-prone instrument, and even get a similar effect, but few can, or do actually do it.

 

I'll agree with this.

 

[Frank]

There is a good reason why anglos and button accordions are preferred for Irish music, and that is the natural bounce and lift which comes almost automatically along with the instrument's "shortcomings".

 

Now, hold on. There is _no_ reason to think the Irish thought these things through in advance and picked the anglo and the button box on purpose because they were in any sense better, and every reason to think it happened for historical and economic reasons.

 

(snip)

 

In conclusion (ahem). If Mac wants to play all Irish with very-heavily "pure-drop" players (and perhaps sneak off to play Morris when they aren't looking), then by all means get an anglo. If you already play a push-pull box of some sort, consider an anglo fairly strongly. But if Irish is only one of several kinds of music that you hope to play, consider other systems.

 

-Eric Root

[JimLucas]

There is a good reason why anglos and button accordions are preferred for Irish music, and that is the natural bounce and lift which comes almost automatically along with the instrument's "shortcomings".

This is why a legato style is preferred for whistles (as little tonguing as possible)and fiddles (minimal bow reversals)?

 

No, Frank, I think you have a post-hoc argument. I suspect that the anglo and the button accordion were adopted for quite different reasons, but once they became established in the tradition(s), the characteristics of the necessary bellows reversal were re-labelled as primary, when really they're secondary.

 

by the way, the "history" I've heard -- from more than one source, though that doesn't guarantee that it's true -- is that the anglo was adopted as a "poor man's uillean pipes", and I think the traditional playing style supports this: mainly melody, with only occasional harmony notes like the use of the regulators on the pipes. This would also seem to explain the presence of a drone key on many anglos.

[Helen]

I've taken up the piano accordion again which I have not played since I was a kid. I can't remember how long I played. Anyway, I was hoping to play Irish music. I only want to play in jams (sessions?) so would that work?

 

I'll also try to get my concertina playing up to speed so I can play anglo, but I was hoping to use the PA.

 

Has anyone been playing the 24 button models (Anglos) and if so, how do you like them? I'm saving money for a new Anglo. I've time to waffle between the 30 and the 24. I do have an inexpensive 30 now that I can use.

 

I was kinda thrown by Frank's post which casually mentioned PA. I'm hoping, Frank, that you were referring to people playing for dances and bands. I went to an Irish jam on Friday (with bodhran) and would like to go back with squeezers. People were laid back so it would be okay. But there are jams much closer to my home and maybe they would not be okay with PA. My concertina playing is not very rapid yet.

[JimLucas]

There are some players of Irish music who play piano accordions, but the vast majority play button accordions.

 

Today, perhaps. But was it always so? I remember a Comhaltas concert tour of "All Ireland" champions about 30 years ago where the piano accordion was *the* accordion, and the one button accordion player was presented as unusual. As I recall, it was not a half-step (B/C, D/D#, or the like) instrument. It wasn't until some years later that I first encountered one of those.

 

I'm somewhat guessing, but I suspect that there may have been a period (1940's-60's?) in Irish music when the piano accordion was an instrument of choice, just as piano backup was considered a requirement. (Now it seems a band isn't a "band" without a guitar or bouzouki.) But I also suspect that the piano accordion was a passing fad, with the button accordions more common both before and after, and hanging on in the homes even when Irish "culture" had more public emphasis than "tradition". But even today I've met several excellent Irish piano accordion players, who don't also play button accordion.

 

As for the concertina, I don't think it was ever as common historically as it is today. Before Noel Hill started his campaign to popularize the concertina, traditional players were scarce and practically unknown, either isolated individuals or found in small pockets. I've heard a lot about "the West Clare style" on the anglo, but *nothing* about other regional styles... Limerick, Donegal, Kerry, or even Galway (which is right next to Clare).

 

The concertina is used in Irish music, but it certainly doesn't *define* Irish music, and even in its recent popularity, I'm sure it's outnumbered far more than 10-to-1 by each of fiddles, whistles, and flutes.

[Ken_Coles]

I don't know if it is a "style," but Father Charlie Coen is from eastern Galway, and his playing (learned in the traditional manner) is a bit different from the Clare players I've heard. I'm sure Gearoid O. could tell us all about this subject. Has anyone read his dissertation on concertina styles in Ireland? But I'm gettin off topic, sorry.

 

Ken

[Helen]

Ah Jim,

 

You have me up, you have me down. Glad to hear that piano accordions were used in Ireland.

 

Sad to hear you think they were a passing fad.

 

Still gonna work on the PA and the anglo. My fiddle or whistle playing would not be believed. I'm not even going there.

 

Helen

[JimLucas]

I don't know if it is a "style," but Father Charlie Coen is from eastern Galway, and his playing (learned in the traditional manner) is a bit different from the Clare players I've heard.

 

I know Father Charlie. What I remember him telling me about how he learned was that he didn't learn as a child in Galway, but as an adult (on Long Island) he got himself a concertina and then tried to teach himself to play it the way he remembered his grandfather's playing.

 

As for "style", I don't think one man constitutes a "regional" style. However...

 

I'm sure Gearoid O. could tell us all about this subject. Has anyone read his dissertation on concertina styles in Ireland? But I'm gettin off topic, sorry.

 

I haven't. I didn't realize it existed. In fact, its existence would seem to contradict my own experience of not having heard of styles, aside from "West Clare" and "Mrs. Crotty". I'd love to get my hands on a copy and see what he says.

[JimLucas]

Glad to hear that piano accordions were used in Ireland.

 

Sad to hear you think they were a passing fad.

I said I thought an emphasis on the PA over the "diatonic" button accordions was a passing fad, though I suspect spanning at least a couple of decades.

 

But while it's not *dominant* these days, I don't believe that even now it's considered inappropriate or inferior, except by a few "more traditional than thou" bigots. (And in my personal experience, those with such prejudices can't *play* for beans.) Today the fad -- or media promotion -- seems to be away from such "sophisticated" instruments as the PA and the Boehm flute, but in fact there are many excellent players of each in the tradition.

[Eric Root]

There is a good reason why anglos and button accordions are preferred for Irish music, and that is the natural bounce and lift which comes almost automatically along with the instrument's "shortcomings".

This is why a legato style is preferred for whistles (as little tonguing as possible)and fiddles (minimal bow reversals)?

 

No, Frank, I think you have a post-hoc argument. I suspect that the anglo and the button accordion were adopted for quite different reasons, but once they became established in the tradition(s), the characteristics of the necessary bellows reversal were re-labelled as primary, when really they're secondary.

 

I think when people tell newbies about anglos being chosen on purpose for Irish music because of natural bounciness, it needs to be labeled as "folklore," otherwise, the newbies might mistake it for having real-world validity, a mistake they wouldn't make if they hear heard about putting rattlesnake rattles in their fiddles to make them play better, they way you sometimes see in Appalachia.

 

Jim mentioned some tipoffs that this business is folklore. Another is that every Irish-style conceritist I've heard sounds pretty smooth and un-bouncy (lots of cross-row), well within what one could do with one of the other systems without having to be some sort of freak. Ken Sweeney, for instance, is not some kind of freak for being able to play Irish music "right" on the English concertina; he just knows how it is supposed to sound and really knows how to play his instrument.

 

Now, speaking of bouncy: at the NYC Wheatstone bicentennial (thanks, Allan!) the Kruskal brothers, on anglo, played English music with as much bounce and drive as I have heard from kick-butt Cajun accordionists, I mean, it was a real eye (and ear, and sinus) opener. Now, _that_ I think would be pretty hard to do on an English without some heavy-duty wrist straps.

 

-Eric Root

[Frank Edgley]

Wow! A lot of responses. I guess the controversy continues, although due, in part, to a misinterpretation of what has been said. I'm still having problems getting quotes on the thing, so I'll just refer to statements made by members of this forum and clarify what I said.

 

-JIM, my comments were just as I stated them, i.e. for traditional Irish music. I made no mention of Scottish, Shetland, or American music, bands or musicians.

 

-JIM, My comments re the piano accordion are valid. There are small piano accordions. Glen Schultz, who makes the "THIN WEASEL" whistles plays one as his only accordion. I have owned three at one time, although I purchased them on speculation, not as a player. No, they aren't as common as the big ones, but they do exist, and those who would want one could surely get one. The difference I referred to is one of direction. This difference is the main reason for the popularity of the button accordion over the piano accordion, today, in Ireland, in spite of the fact that it would be much easier for a musician trained on the piano to switch over to piano accordion than button accordion.

 

-Jim, I agree with you that the anglo was chosen for economic reasons over the English concertina, in Ireland, many years ago. Those reasons have now disappeared, however, the facts remain, and so does the dominence of the anglo. Undoubtedly, the original economic reasons and the resulting anglo dominence has helped to shape the way all IRISH concertina styles have developed. In other words, the instrument has shaped the music more than the music chose the instrument, at least historically.

 

-JIM, the "legato style" of whistle players and lack of tonguing you mention eludes me. I often hear players of Irish music play very legato, over here, in North America, at sessions, but these tend to be inexperienced whistle players who have not managed to use embellishments effectively, if at all. We have, at our branch, several whisle players who have competed and won prizes at the All Ireland, and their playing is anything but legato. Also, if you have ever heard Micho Russel, the well-known Doolin whistle player, you will know that tonguing is the only form of embellishment he used, and he liberally sprinkled his music with it.

 

-JIM, having benn involved in the very Comhaltas tours you mention, I know how the musicians are selected. They are selected on the basis of merit (usually All Ireland winners) with and attempt to include at least one instrument from those predominent in Irish music. It is, most importantly, a voluntary tour, with the musicians getting next to nothing in way of compensation, monetarily. For that reason, you usually see young musicians, or older, retired musicans on the tour. Because of the lack of remuneration, very often there is difficulty getting the full complement of musicians willing to go on a gruellig six week tour of the US and Canada. A tour not having a button accordion does not mean that it wasn't an important instrument, but more likely, the musician cancelled or one could not be found to replace him/her.

 

-Eric, I'm not sure what side of the argument you're on when I read your whole post, but it is not folklore. I repeat: I don't know of one well-known concertinist in Ireland playing English. I know many of them and have heard their opinions about English for playing Trad Irish music. It may very well be folklore as far as their opinions are concerned, but the facts remain. Don't get me wrong, I have never said that you couldn't or shouldn't play Irish music on English. I've already stated the examples of Matt Heumann and Ken Sweeney as being brilliant players of Irish music on English concertina. My points are that:

[Frank Edgley]

Sorry, I must have hit the wrong key, so to finish:

 

-In IRELAND, virtually noone does.

-You can certainly do it and do it well, but it requires more work, and a change in technique that very few English players seem to do. I have never said that it couldn't be done.

-Irish music is essentially for dancing and is therefore "bouncy", not legato and it is easier to achieve that bounciness on an instrument on which it is easier to be "bouncy" than legato. THIS IS NOT A SLIGHT TO ENGLISH PLAYERS, but come on. Throw us anglo players a bone. It is evident that English players can play chromatically, and in different keys than anglo. Is it too much to ask to admit we have an edge in one area???.

[Lester Bailey]

It is evident that English players can play chromatically, and in different keys than anglo. Is it too much to ask to admit we have an edge in one area???.

Yes

[Christopher Quinn]

Don't know if anyone has said this yet ('cause I don't want to read every entry in this post) but from what I've learned the Anglo concertina is easy to play by ear. It can be quite intuitive. I bought my eldest son a Hohner 20-button Anglo last Christmas. He was 7 and a half then. Discovering tunes is fairly easy and he enjoys playing it.

 

Hand straps as opposed to thumb straps may be a factor in catering for small hands too.

[Paul Groff]

Hello all

 

Frank, I enjoyed your rebuttal and I agree in that I love to hear Irish music played on the anglo (or German!). That's where the history of expression of this style is, that's what the incredible flood of today's great Irish players are using. But ---

 

IN PRINCIPLE if you wanted to imitate the pipes as many concertinists do to some degree I would wonder if finger articulation with the buttons, and subtle changes of bellows pressure (not direction) could come closer to imitating the method of tone production of the pipes. When you think about this, you might well think the english could have an ADVANTAGE over the anglo, or at least no disadvantage, if you really knew the music and mastered your concertina. Certainly the air flow is unidirectional in the pipes, and to my understanding the rhythmic pumping can not be depended on to correlate with the rhythm of the music. So I'm with Jim on that point, and the general point that any instrument well-played can be a vehicle for any kind of music.

 

And David Townsend made a very astute comment years ago in a C & S interview, (paraphrasing, and my emphasis): [it's a fallacy that] push-pull instruments give you automatic [good] rhythm; listening to [some of the amateur] melodeon players [or anglo players] tells you that's very untrue...You can create a good rhythm on any instrument IF you have a good internal rhythm yourself." Like Frank and Jim I've heard great dance music on the english, both robust and subtle (as well as the famous players, Andrew Knight of Newcastle comes to mind).

 

Of course there are lots of little technical aspects of each instrument that can be exploited in music. It's hard to copy the exact details of anglo technique on the english and maybe best to exploit its own little twists of note placement, fingering, phrasing with bellows.

 

But the one major "type of sound" that you get on the anglo (or German, or button accordion) that is hardest to duplicate on the english is the rapid change of notes on one button produced by holding a button down and crisply changing bellows direction. I don't mean just horsing the bellows in and out like a cartoon character, but subtly profiling both the first and second note with controlled bellows pressure while using a change in bellows direction (and the 2 valves) to articulate the change in pitch. After some practice this can give a lot of nuances that would be hard to imitate on an english (especially at high speed), where all changes of pitch are keyed by the fingers. On the other side of the equation, the english can do a repetition of the same pitch via bellows shake, an effect I have been told some enjoy. So Frank, if we were to be thrown a bone (besides the great tradition of Irish anglo players!) I would say it should be this effect rather than the notion that our push-pull instruments will make the rhythm for us!

 

BTW Frank, I really enjoyed hearing your punchy anglo playing at the Comhaltas convention. It has been too long since I got to hear Jim play.

 

Paul