Stagi Hayden Duet Concertina

[David Barnert]

9 hours ago, DaveRo said:

Here are some pictures.

 

Thank you. From these pictures, I draw the following conclusions:

 

The studs are more like what I remember, but appear to be different (shallower) hardware from what’s seen in the photo I posted from the fabbricaconcertine.com web site.

 

The buttons are slanted at different angles on the left and right sides. I measure it as approximately 7 degrees on the right and 16 degrees on the left. Brian Hayden’s specs call for 10.5 degrees on both sides:

 

Quote

16mm between the centres of buttons along the rows 9mm between one row and the next above - to give an equal spacing of 12mm between the nearest buttons along the diagonal. The rows to slope down at an angle of 10.5 degrees towards the thumbs. Large flat top buttons are preferable.

 

Button size and spacing cannot be measured in the photographs because of scaling uncertainties, but it is clear that the diagonal rows are often neither straight nor evenly spaced (particularly on the left), which couldn’t happen if the specs were followed (as they were in the Bastari version).

 

[DaveRo]

The row are straight in all directions and at both ends, despite their appearance in the photos.

 

The button spacing on each row is the same on both ends, but the rows are closer together on the left, making the diagonal button spacing less.

 

Button diameter 8 (all distances in mm, nearest mm)

 

Distance between button-centres of the triangle C - D - G (or any other triangle on the same side):
Right:  C  17  D  14  G  17  C
Left:    C  17  D  13  G  16  C

 

On both ends the upper button of the nearest row (C or G#) is opposite the top of the handrest (i.e. the leather strap).

 

Distance C to G# (same both ends) 68

Perpendicular distance from edge of handrest to centre of C and G# buttons:
                              Right       Left
Handrest to C        45           58
Handrest to G#      53           42

 

So I calculate the slope as - right: 6.7 deg, left: 13.6 deg.

 

It was only when I was considering the conundrum - why have closer rows on the left when there are fewer rows to fit in? - that I noticed that the handrests about 5mm nearer to you on the right.

 

It's as if the two ends were designed independently by different people!

 

[David Barnert]

On 3/16/2021 at 2:10 PM, alex_holden said:

The factory has an Instagram channel:

https://www.instagram.com/fabbricaconcertineitaliasrls/

On 3/19/2021 at 7:49 AM, Theo said:

The catalogue page on their website illustrates the current Hayden Duet, scroll down to find it.  Does this show an improved layout?

 

Both of these pages have since vanished. Also note the pictures I posted on this thread from the fabbricaconcertine.com site back in March of 2021 have also vanished. But @Ed Nardell just received Stagi Hayden from them a few days ago (after waiting 5 months since he ordered it) so there must be some activity there.

[Takayuki YAGI]

If my memory serves, Fabbrica Concertine became Concertine Italia. Their catalogue page is here:
https://www.concertineitalia.it/en/hayden-duet-46-concertina/hayden-duet-46-concertina-concertine-italia/

[Ed Nardell]

True, after 5 months, my Stagi Duet finally arrived via Troy Laabs in WI, who sells it a few hundred dollars below the current retail prices asked by Liberty Bellows, the other US distributor.  I cannot blame the dealer for the delay - only for not indicating when I bought it that it would be many months.  I almost cancelled when I decided that, after reading all the complaints about the Stagi, I was going to want a finer instrument and went ahead and ordered a custom Peacock from Concertina Connection - almost 5 times the price of the Stagi - but still a hybrid instrument with accordion reeds like the Stagi.  As is well known here, none of the few manufacturers of hand made concertina reeds are taking orders at this time.  William Walker says they will start again when the wait time returns to the "usual" 4 years!  At 78, I shall never have a new concert reed duet!  

 

The Stagi.  It is early days, but I am quite happy with the instrument. As many have quoted here, it is nicely made of quality materials (you can watch Simona's Youtube video of how she and another woman make these from scratch in small batches, with a few craftsmen coming in for specialized steps - such as a reed specialist. 

I am certain that the Custom Peacock with outshine the Stagi in every way, but it is 5 times the price! Given the price and availability of the Stagi, and the rarity of others, new or used, and its full 46 buttons, I think it is really the best option for the money for a Hayden Duet. 

 

Re non-standard (Hayden) demensions, it is something that one adapts to I presume.  Even the Custom Peacock comes with straight button arrays - no angle at all - so why complain about their asymmetry.  Yes, the original design should have followed Hayden specs if it was to be sold as a Hayden, but that is water over the dam. This tiny company makes a variety of concertinas and I doubt that they an afford to redesign the instrument at this point.  There is no William Walker to do that.  They are selling an acceptable product in my view and keeping the price reasonable. Even the notorious studs don't bother me - a bit of care is required. 

 

Like David B, I play recorder and every hand made instrument is similar but different than another. The good plastic ones, of course, are identical, but not standard between companies. Yet any experienced recorder  player can pick up a recorder and within minutes adjust to the particularities of that instrument.  I suspect that is true of conertinas too.  Here is a Youtube of a player playing well on a Stagi.  I think this forum provides a lot of valuable information - people should know what their buying - but the Stagi right now is a blessing if you want a full 46 button instrument at a reasonable price.  My thoughts just days after acaquiring one.  The Custom Peacock was due early Feb - no sign yet!  Comparison (unfair though any comparison will be) will follow at some point.  Ed

 

 

[Tiposx]

Well there's nowt wrong with that Stagi in the video. It reminds me that we should listen to the music rather than the instrument.

I would be very excited at the prospect of playing such a new toy. Best wishes.

[Ed Nardell]

On 3/20/2021 at 11:13 AM, DaveRo said:

It's laminate strip, stuck on and varnished over, as you can see in the left-hand picture. I would have done that bit again - most of the corners are like the right-hand picture. The strip is made of plastic, at a guess.

 

The effect is quite attractive, I think, though obviously fake. The whole instrument seems well-enough constructed to my inexpert eye.

 

My new 2025 Stagi is a lot better in those details from what I can see in the photos, but fundamentally the same instrument. 

[Ed Nardell]

I've been working on learning the fingering of my new Stagi duet - and the Peacock is to arrive a few days after they receive my check.  There has been considerable discussion, above, about the proper angle of the buttons according to the Hayden specifications.  In the Wicki design, they were straight.  So the Peacock is a Wicki/Hayden hybrid and I'll have to get used to both slanted and straight buttons - although apparently not at the proper slant on the Stagi.  In looking at "Duet Concertina Workshop Tutor" by Brian Hayden, on the page describing the 46 button Hayden pattern, Hayden overlays the button pattern on a music staff, and with the appropriate spacing, they appear exactly on the staff where the notes would appear if written. 

 

I had assumed that the purpose for the slanted buttons was ergonomic, but perhaps its purpose is to help the player looking at notes on a staff to visualize and feel the button locations - notes go higher left to right on the right side.  On the left, however, its just the opposite.  Maybe in previous discussions, but the purpose of the slanted buttons had't come up when the issue was discussed.  If the slant isn't for ergonomic purposes, it seems to have ergonomic consequences, Requiring more curl under for fingers at one end array than the other. 

 

Clearly the slant is an option, since the Wakker makes the Elise with the Hayden slanted keyboard, and the Troubador and Peacock with straight Wicki layouts. The Wakker true concertina photos on their website show the Wicki layout.  Thoughts? 

[David Barnert]

19 hours ago, Ed Nardell said:

There has been considerable discussion, above, about the proper angle of the buttons according to the Hayden specifications.  In the Wicki design, they were straight.

 

Calling the straight rows of the Peacock “Wicki” always left a bad taste in my mouth. On Kaspar Wicki’s instrument, the rows were not only straight, they were mirror image. That is, on both ends the lower notes were closer to the index finger. So calling the Peacock a Wicki layout as if the defining difference between Hayden and Wicki was the slant of the rows is really not accurate.

 

19 hours ago, Ed Nardell said:

I had assumed that the purpose for the slanted buttons was ergonomic, but perhaps its purpose is to help the player looking at notes on a staff to visualize and feel the button locations - notes go higher left to right on the right side.  On the left, however, its just the opposite.

 

My understanding was that it was ergonomic (to make it easier to play octaves on the left with the ring and little fingers) and that the correspondence of the button locations on the right side with positions on the staff was noticed later.

[Ed Nardell]

1 hour ago, David Barnert said:

 

Calling the straight rows of the Peacock “Wicki” always left a bad taste in my mouth. On Kaspar Wicki’s instrument, the rows were not only straight, they were mirror image. That is, on both ends the lower notes were closer to the index finger. So calling the Peacock a Wicki layout as if the defining difference between Hayden and Wicki was the slant of the rows is really not accurate.

 

 

My understanding was that it was ergonomic (to make it easier to play octaves on the left with the ring and little fingers) and that the correspondence of the button locations on the right side with positions on the staff was noticed later.

Good point about the Peacock and Wicki designation.  When you order one you can choose the mirror image layout, but when I asked, he said that the reverse layout, with left lower notes close to the pinky, was more common and that is what should arrive this week or early next.  I am interested in comparing the Stagi and Peacock button positions, understanding that the Stagi are not true to the Hayden design.  I understand that, in general, concertinas are played with the fingertips not flat fingered, requiring some arching of the hand and less than tight hand straps. Have you seen any good discussions on optimal hand positions with photos or video?  Of course, the variability in our hands makes standardizing hand positions difficult. 

[Ed Nardell]

Here is another fine example of the Stagi being played well - to my ear.  For its imperfections, it works. 

 

[Ed Nardell]

The Concertina Connection custom Peacock concertina arrived Saturday, March 16, and I cannot keep my hands off of it! It is a much smaller instrument, beautifully made, and the sound much brighter than the Stagi - and its remarkable sound is produced instantly with very little air.  The buttons require a bit of pressure, but William Wakker indicates that they will soften with use.  In contrast, the Stagi produces a mellower, softer, sweeter tone - also very nice, as in the two videos I've posted. I haven't decided for sure if I'll keep the Stagi now that the Peacock has finally arrived, but the Stagi does have 46 buttons while the Peacock has 42, so both the tone and range may work better for some songs compared to others.  It isn't fair to compare these instruments in a critical way, the one more than 4 times the cost of the other.  They are both nicely made and work well, but you can feel and hear the differences. IMG_1173 2.HEICIMG_1173 2.HEICIMG_1173 2.HEIC