Shared Reed chamber

[Isel]

As I feel a bit desperate because my holidays are near to finish?...

I don't bother to share this silly question I have long time ago ( and arised after seeing the new reedpan @alex_holden is building:

 

 

The question is: what about a shared Reed chamber for two or more reeds, in similar manner the hollow uillean pipe mainstock do work?

I think Geoff @Geoff WooffWooff would have valuable oppinion.

(My apologies if this topic was already stated in Cnet)

[alex_holden]

For the avoidance of confusion, the pans pictured don't have any double reed chambers.

[Geoff Wooff]

On  the  "English International"  CD  collection  Ian  Robb  plays  a  double  reeded  Wheatstone  Aeola  where  two  reeds  an octave  apart  are  sounded by  the pressing of  one button.  There  was  a discussion  about this  instrument,  I'll see if  the search  facility  turns it up.  I'm  not  sure  whether  there were two  reeds  in each  chamber  or  the  button lever  opened  two  chambers.

[alex_holden]

The photos seem to have been deleted, but there is a topic on here from a few years ago about a Crabb English that had double reeds tuned to the same octave. I'm almost certain that it had a separate chamber for each push/pull pair of reeds, with the action levers connected to enlarged pallets that uncovered two chambers at once. I believe accordions are constructed similarly? I don't know what the reason is - if you put them all in a single chamber do they interfere with each other?

[Isel]

1 hour ago, alex_holden said:

if you put them all in a single chamber do they interfere with each other?

As far as I understand (limited), they do.

And that would be desired in order to couple the reeds involved trying to gain harmonic blending. I suppose that would be, if any, applied only to reeds acting as drones; or in a "entire" double reeded instrument as Geoff cited.

[Sprunghub]

Re 'interfering', would the pairing not offer the option for a tremolo effect, as per the Melodeon/Accordion, if tuned to pitch and sharp by 'x' cents on each reed ? via a single button? either in LM or MM. ie. a degree of wetness behind the principal single reed note.  Especially if Dedic tuned one would think it may be a useful addition.

 

I once had a German made box distributed by Campbells, I think from the early 1900's, .....one has been discussed previously on C.Net...... with a  "slide" mechanism by the thumb, which created a single or dual reed effect on all the buttons.  It was a melodeon reeded instrument rather than traditional, but the effect was the same...."Celestial" ?? or some such branded ? 

 

 

[alex_holden]

Just now, Sprunghub said:

Re 'interfering', would the pairing not offer the option for a tremolo effect, as per the Melodeon/Accordion, if tuned to pitch and sharp by 'x' cents on each reed ? via a single button? either in LM or MM. ie. a degree of wetness behind the principal single reed note.  Especially if Dedic tuned one would think it may be a useful addition.

 

Yes, but my understanding is that melodeons/accordions have two (or more) separate chambers opened by one shared pallet rather than placing all the reeds in a single chamber. Is that just because it's easier to build/tune, or would the reeds actually behave differently if they weren't separated by a dividing wall?

[alex_holden]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Accordion_button_mechanism.svg#/media/File:Accordion_button_mechanism.svg

[Takayuki YAGI]

I don't know if I should upload it but I archived a photo from ebay 2016 and it shows separate reed chamber and enlarged(doubled) pads.

[Takayuki YAGI]

20 minutes ago, Sprunghub said:

I once had a German made box distributed by Campbells, I think from the early 1900's, .....one has been discussed previously on C.Net...... with a  "slide" mechanism by the thumb, which created a single or dual reed effect on all the buttons.  It was a melodeon reeded instrument rather than traditional, but the effect was the same...."Celestial" ?? or some such branded ? 

 

 

I now own the one described above. Celestial means double reed tremolo tuning according to the Dan Warroll's article here.

[Stephen Chambers]

Now that I think I understand the question, we seem to be going right back to Cyrill Demian's first accordions;

 

 

and the chord reeds in old-style melodeons;

 

 

In which case I can tell you, from practical experience, that the timbre is very different - the sound being softer and less-focussed than if the individual reeds were in seperate compartments (like the chord reeds are in more-modern accordions).

[Isel]

Interesting!!

[alex_holden]

30 minutes ago, Stephen Chambers said:

In which case I can tell you, from practical experience, that the timbre is very different - the sound being softer and less-focussed than if the individual reeds were in seperate compartments (like the chord reeds are in more-modern accordions).

 

That's very interesting, thanks Stephen.

[Sprunghub]

1 hour ago, alex_holden said:

 

Yes, but my understanding is that melodeons/accordions have two (or more) separate chambers opened by one shared pallet rather than placing all the reeds in a single chamber. Is that just because it's easier to build/tune, or would the reeds actually behave differently if they weren't separated by a dividing wall?

Generally, yes......but on the "bass" pairs of reeds which are tuned together to give two octaves the chamber has a 'cut out' and a baffle to provide air to both reeds from one 'pad' in a single chamber.  These are tuned to one pitch, ie. no tremolo as such. 

[alex_holden]

23 minutes ago, Sprunghub said:

Generally, yes......but on the "bass" pairs of reeds which are tuned together to give two octaves the chamber has a 'cut out' and a baffle to provide air to both reeds from one 'pad' in a single chamber.  These are tuned to one pitch, ie. no tremolo as such. 

 

Do you have a picture/drawing of how that works? Where does the baffle go?

[Stephen Chambers]

2 hours ago, Sprunghub said:

Generally, yes......but on the "bass" pairs of reeds which are tuned together to give two octaves the chamber has a 'cut out' and a baffle to provide air to both reeds from one 'pad' in a single chamber.  These are tuned to one pitch, ie. no tremolo as such. 

 

They may be then working together more like "helikon/helicon bass" reeds (typically used in "Alpine" accordions to produce a fruity helikon/tuba-like sound), where the extra-large low-octave reed is assisted in sounding by one an octave above it. I was going to mention them next: HELICON BASS reeds.

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Stephen Chambers
Edited to add "fruity"

[Isel]

Interesting Stephen,Thank you!

(A propos... I have noticed the Harmonika's Tipo A Mano II Class reeds are tuned with 5 cents  accuracy ...An interesting matter to discuss in topic apart could be the "subjective" percepction of tuning?)

[Geoff Wooff]

Where  reeds   sharing  one  chamber are  tuned in unison  or  octaves  we  might expect  them to  phase lock  and  perhaps  they  will  but I'm  not  sure  to  what  extent  we  can   describe  the  reedpans    of  traditional  concertinas  as  having  closed  (  separated)  chambers.  I  can imagine  that  two  reeds  tuned  closely  but not  exactly the same  pitch, so as to  create  a  'celeste'  or  'wet'  tone  might  try  to  influence  one to  the other  and phase lock when  mounted  in the same  chamber.

 

I  can see why  someone  would  want  to  have  two  reeds  in octaves  to  make  a 'bandoneon'  tone  but two  reeds the same pitch  with the  a view to  making    a louder concertina will only  end up  with  a much  larger  instrument .  Loud  concertinas  are usually  small  and  have  metal ends  with  plenty of  cut out  in the fretwork.