Wheatstone 21 vs 22 this time..

[seanc]

Ok as a follow up to the 21 vs Holmwood thread.. I had taken the advice of the crowd and opted for the 21.. sent my Lachenal and the money to Greg J..

 

and then something happened on the way to Kentucky . I sold something else. I could now get a 22 that Greg has. It is a good deal of money difference..

and I am NOT a great player at this point. Should I just take the plunge and do it. Or save the money and work up to it?

 

is there an $800 ish difference?

 

 

But what is the wisdom. Of the sages here?

 

[W3DW]

As the happy owner of a model 21, I have always wondered what the actual differences are to have been worth the significant difference in the original price.  Using a 1920s Wheatstone advertisement (the era of my instrument) the Model 22 cost £17 and the Model 21 sold for £11 - quite a difference! 

 

"Best nickel plated raised ends" are advertised for the Model 22.  A century on, has the plating proved to be superior? Do raised ends sound better or feel better?  I sure think they look fine. 

 

"Spherical end silver keys and ends to match" sounds fancy, but the Model 21 could be similarly described. Are they different? 

 

Then come my "steel vibrators" versus the Model 22 "best steel vibrators".  What differentiated them when new? Were they differently manufactured, or perhaps were they all built the same but the Model 22 reeds were carefully selected and prepared?

 

The model 22 had "morocco" bellows which might have also brought better workmanship and better action, but these are likely replaced by this time anyway. 

 

And finally, the Model 22 was said to feature a "new improved action, short touch and rapid articulation". We're 21s and 22s internally dissimilar? 

 

Of course, the largest differences between the two instruments that seanc is considering is what has happened since each has left the factory - how have they been played, cared for and restored. But I wonder what can be said about the original differences in these two concertinas, and what might be expected of them today. 

 

Thanks, all! 

Daniel 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by W3DW
Clarity

[Geoff Wooff]

Having  one of  each  sitting side by side, taking a good look  at  the  physical  differences  with  an  experienced  eye  would  be  interesting  and  Greg  is in a position to do  this .  

 

The  general  condition  of  each  is  one very important  factor  in the value, also  the  period  of  manufacture.  The  photo  on  seanc's  previous discussion  showed  a  model 21  from  a  very good period.... perhaps  this  is  generally  not  taken into  account  when it comes to  value  but .....

 

Other factors  like  5 or 6  fold bellows   have to  be factored in.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Geoff Wooff

[Stephen Chambers]

Perhaps the biggest difference is in the reedpan, which is flat on the 21 (producing a more Anglo-like sound), but tapered on the 22 (producing fuller low notes). The 21 is likely to have cheaper levers made of brass rod, hammered flat in the middle (like a Jeffries, or Crabb), the 22's will be made out of sheet brass, which is stronger. The reeds in the 21 will probably be shorter in scale (making them bighter in sound) than the 22's.

 

You'd be best advised to try the two of them and buy the one you prefer. Personally I like the sound of my 1910 No.6 "Special" the best, because it's warm, rich, and loud, but you might prefer the "honk" of the No.21!

 

Horses for courses...

Edited June 16, 2020 by Stephen Chambers

[seanc]

1 hour ago, Stephen Chambers said:

Perhaps the bigest difference is in the reedpan, which is flat on the 21 (producing a more Anglo-like sound), but tapered on the 22 (producing fuller low notes). The 21 is likely to have cheaper levers made of brass rod, hammered flat in the middle (like a Jeffries, or Crabb), the 22's will be made out of sheet brass, which is stronger. The reeds in the 21 will probably be shorter in scale (making them bighter in sound) than the 22's.

 

You'd be best advised to try the two of them and buy the one you prefer. Personally I like the sound of my 1910 No.6 "Special" the best, because it's warm, rich, and loud, but you might prefer the "honk" of the No.21!

 

Horses for courses...

 

Stephen (and all) this is really helpful.

 

i know that it is near impossible to generalize. Or make a 100% informed decision without hands on side by side comparison. Especially in terms of 100+ years of time, use, wear, care etc. but I am in mass and Greg is in Ky. 
 

if action and response is pretty similar. And. 21 can be described as a “honkey Anglo” while sounding pretty politically incorrect and possibly quite racially charged.. that seems to be more inline with what I am Anglo-ing for...

 

I will wait for others including Greg to weigh in.. but that and saving a bunch of cash leans things a bit in the 21 direction..

add to that buying a 21 close to 2021. Gets a pseudo numerology voodoo magic thing going  And now I can’t seem to get The Who “So you think 21 is going to be a good year” out of my head..

 

 

[seanc]

FWIW...

 

the choice actually came down to the 22 or the Holmwood.

 

i opted for the 22. Now I wait for delivery.

 

[Steve Wilson]

I think you've made the right choice.  For many years I had a wheatie 21 and it served me well, but now I have a superior concertina and I'm so glad.

[seanc]

1 hour ago, Steve Wilson said:

I think you've made the right choice.  For many years I had a wheatie 21 and it served me well, but now I have a superior concertina and I'm so glad.

I am sure that all three would have served me well for a while. But I was lucky enough to have sold a few more things at the right time to stretch for the 22. As I suspect many of us came to the concertina from other instruments. I think many of us, regardless of skill levels have found that we hit a wall in our increasing abilities vs the capabilities of our instruments. 
 

I felt I hit that with the Lachenal. And having an AC Norman Anglo, I had a benchmark as to how a concertina could be. The Norman, by contrast, was like a Ferrari. Nimble, fast and expressive with a huge dynamic range. Not having a ton of experience, I have no idea if the Norman is great, good, or poor compared to the population of what is out there. Maybe when the 22 lands I will realize that the Norman is not that exceptional in contrast.

 

[RWL]

I have a friend who has a Model 22.  It is a little louder than my metal ended Edeophone and she tells me her 22 is louder than a mutual friend's metal ended Aeola.  I don't know if all 22's are loud though.  Greg could advise on that.  Loudness of course isn't the only quality that's important to the sound of the instrument though.  Playing them would be an important way to decide.  Maybe Greg could play the same tune on both and send you the recordings if you can't visit his shop.  When I was at NESI last year I had a chance to try some instruments that Greg set up.  They were all very responsive.