Anglo printed music - real pitch or octave low?

[gcoover]

I know ITM Anglo players who are "paper-trained" read music in actual pitch, but what about those of you who read music and play C/G Anglo in the harmonic style? Real pitch, or off by an octave?

 

How many of you harmonic players treat the C/G Anglo as an octave-high instrument when reading music? (Of course, button numbering would remain the same regardless).

 

The problem is caused by Middle C being deep in the left-hand side of the Anglo, which doesn't really matter if you play by ear or by pattern, but for the rest of you, what about "the dots"?

 

I've always shown the musical notes in actual pitch in my books, but both Adrian Brown and John Watcham prefer the notes to be shown one octave lower. The reasoning being it keeps the high notes in the key of G from being up in ledger-line stratosphere, and also makes the larger world of "normal" printed music much more available. No double treble clefs either, just normal treble and bass clefs.

 

Your opinions and experiences, please!

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by gcoover

[pentaprism]

My experience with AC doesn't count; it's next to nothing. But here's my opinion: I vote for real pitch. I also like "normal treble and bass clefs."

 

Disclosure 1: I also play a little bit of piano. "Wrong" pitch annoys me.

 

Disclosure 2: I played classical guitar in my previous life, util my left thumb decided not to cooperate. The printed music for guitar is an octave high. But somehow that  didn't bother me.

 

 

[gcoover]

The big problem with real pitch and bass clef together for AC is that pretty much everything in the bass clef would be way up in unreadable "ledger line hell". 

 

Which is one reason why I usually just show the melody line with right-hand and left-hand button numbers on either side. But..... what pitch should that melody line be in?

 

Gary

[pentaprism]

14 minutes ago, gcoover said:

The big problem with real pitch and bass clef together for AC is that pretty much everything in the bass clef would be way up in unreadable "ledger line hell". 

2 "normal treble clefs" is OK (I'm learning a piano piece that uses 2 treble clefs).

 

For "real pitch" and 2 "normal treble clefs," most of the melody will be in the upper part and most of the harmony will be in the lower part of the respective clef. I think that looks OK.

 

Since I have you here, Gary, I have a question I meant to ask but kept forgetting: in Easy Anglo 1-2-3, page 51, there is a link "https://youtu.be/otoDX5EstAY" but I couldn't get to it. YouTube says "Video unavailable - The video is private."

[gcoover]

Ah, the dangers of linking to a video by someone else... finally found it elsewhere on the internet - Japanese group The Corona along with Tricolor, playing "The Kesh Set" with an absolutely  beautiful and soulful version of "The Sweetness of Mary" played by Yuka Nakafuji on Anglo concertina. I'll post it in the Concertina Videos & Music section. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by gcoover

[pentaprism]

1 hour ago, gcoover said:

Japanese group The Corona along with Tricolor, playing "The Kesh Set" with an absolutely  beautiful and soulful version of "The Sweetness of Mary" played by Yuka Nakafuji on Anglo concertina.

No wonder I couldn't find it on YouTube. I will play it this evening, and I'm sure that I'll play it more expressively than ever.

 

Thank you, Gary.

[Mikefule]

What key I'm in depends which Anglo I pick up.  I also transpose tunes from one row to another from time to time.  As most Morris music is played in G or D, but many tunes are written in other keys, I just try to make it work.  I certainly don't worry about playing in the same octave as the tune is written.  I'll use the same fingering on my baritone as on my piccolo, and the tune comes out accordingly.

 

G is the most convenient key to read just because it sits nicely on the stave.

 

No doubt if my repertoire were different, or if I were playing in a band, I would have to take a more disciplined approach to reading.

[David Barnert]

7 minutes ago, Mikefule said:

As most Morris music is played in G or D, but many tunes are written in other keys, I just try to make it work.

 

Might be a good time to introduce the concept of “authentic” tunes and “plagal” tunes. The difference is how low in pitch the range of the tune extends. Authentic tunes go down to the root note of the key as the lowest note of the tune. These tunes are often written/played in D. Plagal tunes bottom out on the fifth note of the scale and are often written/played in G. So in both cases, they have the same range (from low D up to usually the G an octave and a half above). This makes a lot of sense to a pennywhistle or pipe & tabor player. On a fiddle it keeps the melody on the top three strings, reserving the bottom G string for drones and bass notes.

 

Tunes in F or A are usually plagal, while tunes in Bb are usually authentic. Go figure.

[Mikefule]

23 hours ago, David Barnert said:

 

Might be a good time to introduce the concept of “authentic” tunes and “plagal” tunes. The difference is how low in pitch the range of the tune extends. Authentic tunes go down to the root note of the key as the lowest note of the tune. These tunes are often written/played in D. Plagal tunes bottom out on the fifth note of the scale and are often written/played in G. So in both cases, they have the same range (from low D up to usually the G an octave and a half above). This makes a lot of sense to a pennywhistle or pipe & tabor player. On a fiddle it keeps the melody on the top three strings, reserving the bottom G string for drones and bass notes.

 

Tunes in F or A are usually plagal, while tunes in Bb are usually authentic. Go figure.

 

That's interesting.  I looked it up and see it comes from church music.  In the key of C, "authentic" would contain notes between C and c, and "plagal" would contain notes between G and g.

 

It applies to some extent in my mainly English folk repertoire, but not so rigidly.

 

Many tunes in C run from C to c but also include the B below C, or the d above c, for example.

 

I normally play on a GD box and I "think in GD".  I play cross row harmonic style.  Referring only to the major keys:

 

Some tunes sit most comfortably in G.  These may have some notes below the tonic, but they sometimes go a little bit above the 8ve, often in the B music.  These seem to be neither plagal nor authentic.  Their compass is too wide to fit either definition, even approximately.

 

Some tunes fit more or less equally well in either key (G or D).  (e.g. Ring o'Bells).  These are more or less "authentic".

 

Some tunes only really fit well in D.  These tend to be the tunes that spend a lot of time below the tonic, and don't go too far above it.  More or less "plagal".

 

Folk music is not church music, so there is no reason why the definitions from the one should fit the other perfectly, but there is something to be learned from the comparison.  Thanks.

[JimLucas]

8 hours ago, Mikefule said:

Folk music is not church music, so there is no reason why the definitions from the one should fit the other perfectly, but there is something to be learned from the comparison.

 

This reminds me of the discussion of "modes".  And also the garmmar of spoken languages.

 

I.e., a certain repertoire is studied in order to find a structure in it.  If such a structure can be found (and sometimes even if not), it is used to construct a set of rules which can then be used to generate further "valid" examples of that repertoire.

 

Problems can arise when those rules are subsequently applied to a different musical repertoire, language, etc., which those rules don't fit.   Or even when someone else derives a different set of rules which are equally valid in describing the original repertoire but may generate something different when extended beyond the original.

[David Barnert]

21 hours ago, Mikefule said:

That's interesting.  I looked it up and see it comes from church music.  In the key of C, "authentic" would contain notes between C and c, and "plagal" would contain notes between G and g.

 

Yes, in the church context, it is limited to tunes with a range of one octave. Most Morris tunes (and contradance tunes and Playford tunes and fiddle tunes in general) have a range from D to g an octave and a half higher. Still, the authentic/plagal dichotomy helps to differentiate D tunes in that range (the low note is root of the scale) and G tunes (the low note is 5th of the scale).

[adrian brown]

1 hour ago, David Barnert said:

 

Yes, in the church context, it is limited to tunes with a range of one octave. Most Morris tunes (and contradance tunes and Playford tunes and fiddle tunes in general) have a range from D to g an octave and a half higher. Still, the authentic/plagal dichotomy helps to differentiate D tunes in that range (the low note is root of the scale) and G tunes (the low note is 5th of the scale).

 

Just to add my tuppence-worth to this... Plagal and authentic modes were still highly important in renaissance polyphony where most parts exceeded the single octave range of the theoretical mode. Simply the system adapted to later styles and modal theory continued as the general basis until the Italians messed everything up around 1600! I find it a very useful idea to apply this to folk tunes - MIke (and David will correct me if I am wrong here) I don’t think it's the upper range of the tune that indicates plagal or authentic here, rather how low the tune generally sits under the tonic. Likewise, I think you can ignore a leading note under the tonic - if that’s all there is, you can consider it authentic.

 

Where it gets interesting is applying this to an Anglo, where you want to keep the melody as far as possible on the right hand. I would almost instinctively play a plagal tune in G on a C/G Anglo in either G or F and an authentic tune in C or D, for the simple reason that the melody sits better on the right. Too many passages that need a low a and g are going to complicate my left hand accompaniment. However, if I was playing a G/D Anglo, I'd have the same tendency, only a forth lower and play plagal tunes in D and C and authentic tunes in G or A, which of course as David has pointed out, is not right way around. Of course if I was playing with others, I’d have to adapt, but still, on a G/D, I’d feel much happier playing something like “Young Collins” (the plagal B part) in D rather than in G.

 

Which leads me to another question concerning the key signatures the collectors used when notating tunes. As far as I can see, the Bacon book of Morris Dances faithfully reproduces the key signatures from the manuscripts and other sources. But how did a collector decide for example that a tune should be written in F rather than G? As David says, most tunes were written within a range of one and a half octaves from D - presumably to avoid too many ledger lines and to keep most of the tune within the stave, but was the choice of key signature generally otherwise arbitrary? We know that collectors who used recording equipment, like Percy Grainger, were highly fastidious in their notation, faithfully recording every slight hesitation or melodic/rhythmic deviation, but for those without such devices notating “in the field”, I imagine they had an interest in keeping things simple.

 

Adrian

 

[JimLucas]

1 hour ago, David Barnert said:

 

Yes, in the church context, it is limited to tunes with a range of one octave. Most Morris tunes (and contradance tunes and Playford tunes and fiddle tunes in general) have a range from D to g an octave and a half higher. Still, the authentic/plagal dichotomy helps to differentiate D tunes in that range (the low note is root of the scale) and G tunes (the low note is 5th of the scale).

 

Such a limited classification "excludes" a great deal of the folk song repertoire, where in a great many songs, both major and minor, the lowest note is neither the tonic nor the fifth,, but often the sixth or seventh (and on rare occasions, something else).  I'm particularly fond of song tunes which are in a major key, including the major seventh of the scale everywhere except for the lowest note, which is a flatted seventh, a full step/tone below the lowest tonic.

 

I don't view such limited classifications as helpful in "understanding" broader systems, but more as attempts to make the task of classification more important than the music itself and even to direct attention away from (reject the validity of?) anything which sounds unfamiliar to the classifier.

[JimLucas]

9 minutes ago, adrian brown said:

But how did a collector decide for example that a tune should be written in F rather than G? As David says, most tunes were written within a range of one and a half octaves from D - presumably to avoid too many ledger lines and to keep most of the tune within the stave, but was the choice of key signature generally otherwise arbitrary? We know that collectors who used recording equipment, like Percy Grainger, were highly fastidious in their notation, faithfully recording every slight hesitation or melodic/rhythmic deviation, but for those without such devices notating “in the field”, I imagine they had an interest in keeping things simple.

 

Do you think that collectors without recording equipment would necessarily be less fastidious?  Judging from the various books I have, those who recorded folk songs did not transpose them into "standard" keys, but transcribed them in the keys in which they were sung by their informants (who did not all have the same vocal range).  So I'm sure that they had means of determining the pitch they were hearing... e.g., a pitch pipe, if they themselves didn't have "perfect pitch".  Actually, a couple of my folk song collections do have all the songs transposed into one or two "standard" keys, but their authors say that that is what they have done.  In at least one case, they even specify for each song the key in which their informant sang it.

 

I would guess that the same was true for those who collected tunes, though the keys would be less varied because "standard" instruments were used.  Melodeons, concertinas, and flutes are built around "fixed" keys, but even fiddles (in a given tuning) have a particular range -- of both notes and keys -- where they are most "comfortable" for non-virtuoso players.  So if all the tunes noted from a particular village are in only one or two keys, I weould guess that that's probably because they were played by the same person on the same instrument, and not in a variety of keys but transposed by the transcriber.

 

41 minutes ago, adrian brown said:

As David says, most tunes were written within a range of one and a half octaves from D - presumably to avoid too many ledger lines and to keep most of the tune within the stave....

 

Presumably?  I would think the range of a tune would most reflect the ease of playing it on an instrument, not the ease of notating it on paper.  Do you really think that flute and fiddle players were in the habit of playing in "odd" keys, which transcribers then troubled themselves to transpose in order to avoid writing ledger lines?  Fiddles in standard tuning go down to G, but the usual keys (and lowest notes) for flutes and whistles were either C or D, so common tunes which went lower would likely be rare in the repertoire.  Similarly, a fiddle rarely plays above a "high G" in first position, so why would a "fiddle tune" go beyond that?

[Little John]

1 hour ago, adrian brown said:

But how did a collector decide for example that a tune should be written in F rather than G?

 

I have always assumed they wrote them in the key they were played. Most morris musicians would have been fiddlers at the time so just looking at their fingering would be enough to establish the key. If not, a tuning fork could be used.

 

1 hour ago, adrian brown said:

... most tunes were written within a range of one and a half octaves from D ...

 

My theory for this is that the most common instruments for folk music would have been the fiddle or the whistle. Assuming a D whistle then its usable range is D to the B nearly two octaves higher. On the fiddle, ignoring the bottom string the range without leaving first position is D4 to B5. So it would be natural to place tunes within this range. In fact when I did a (not entirely scientific) survey of a sample of folk tunes, 96% fell within this range.

 

There are some exceptions. For example the Rose Tree (Bampton) goes down to a low B repeatedly. I wonder whether it wasn't originally in Bb rather then G. That would bring the range up to D4 - Bb5 and would be easy to finger on the fiddle.

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Little John
Typo.

[adrian brown]

My apologies, I didn't point out that my remarks were intended to be directed at tunes that were sung, rather than played to a collector, and the choice of key that the collector then chose to notate it in. Of course if they were played on an instrument, I can quite understand they would be notated as played. I have also managed to take this thread way off topic - sorry Gary...

 

Adrian

[gcoover]

Interesting stuff indeed, but way above my pay grade! 

 

To get back to the original question, here's an example (Shepherd's Hey, Longborough) of what I'm asking all you paper-trained Anglo music-readers:

 

 

Dots in actual pitch? (with double treble clef)

 

or

 

Dots an octave low? (with treble and bass clef)

 

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

Shepherds-Hey-G-notation-example.pdf

Edited June 16, 2020 by gcoover
updated the tab

[JimLucas]

2 hours ago, gcoover said:

Dots in actual pitch? (with double treble clef)

 

or

 

Dots an octave low? (with treble and bass clef)

 

I'm only an occasional anglo  player (the English is my main squeeze), but my answer would be "no" to both.

 

When I have printed out stuff for either my own use or for others, I have used an actual-pitch treble clef for the left hand (as in your upper example) and an octave-lower 8va -treble clef for the right hand (as in your lower example).  Neither I nor those with whom I've used this system have found any confusion with regard to which octave we were reading, since that is determined by which hand we are using, with one hand per staff = one staff per hand.

 

The problem with each of your examples is that each one notates a hand in a region of the staves which is unfamiliar to many who may have been trained to read treble clef in public school but haven't progressed farther, i.e., either to bass clef or high ledger lines.  I think that "readability" (as I perceive it) is far more important than having the musical distance between the notes (i.e., the octaves) accurately represented by the distance on the page when the two staves are logically separate (separate hands), anyway.

 

I say this even though I'm personally comfortable reading both bass clef and ledger lines.  (I did, however, have to "remind" myself that what you notated in the bass clef was actually to be played in the treble clef.  In my experience it's not uncommon to notate bass-clef parts alternatively in a higher octave, but not the other way around.)