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holyprince

Tip for newbie

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Wolf Molkentin said:

 

the commonly-availabe EC-sound covers just one half (at most) of what the instrument is capable of - of course you should not take up an instrument which doesn't "click" with you, I would just like to provide you with an example for your consideration, ad lib...

 

my recording doesn't properly cover the "fat" sound of the particular instrument (a Wheatstone model 24 ET), but it might give a hint to what I'm talking about (you might explore my SC page for more takes of course).

 

best wishes, enjoy whatever instrument you will chose!

?

I will be honest that sounds alot better than some of recordings on yt i heard.  There was one idk it just didnt sound good (almost bit annoying sound) i stopped part way haha, it was probally the song.  Wish there was place local to try, i have mother who is very cost watching, you know mothers.  She wants me to pratice on this shoclar german one (the d/a thats poorly made) to see if i like instrument before buying one, especially since i bought so many instruments in past but didnt take up seriously.  I just dont like bulk, like guitars etc was too big for my tastes, why concertina drew me more than accordion, didnt want to haul double wide cinder block xD, i also like to be able to play anywhere at bout anytime, laying down, outside, in, but theres multiple choices to type.  Its like i have one choice and i have to take a gamble to pick.  I will most likely be self taught unless one does online lessons, and i would have to mail to repair here in central missouri in states theres nothing around that deals with concertinas.  So reliability and one that doesnt have to be repaied / tuned as much.

Edited by holyprince

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You say bulk is a concern, but it's not clear if you mean in regard to travelling or to playing. If the latter, you should be aware that an EC is held by the thumb and (a bit) the little finger, which can be a bit of a weight until you get used to it. It certainly requires decent posture; I haven't tried playing the EC while lying down, and I'm not sure I want to. I believe anglos tend to be a little lighter than Englishes, and duets a little heavier. The wrist straps may make them feel lighter, I don't know. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

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Oh i meant in travel size.  Like accordion vs concertina or cello vs violin.  I understand theres alot of parts under hood, but i like idea of hauling a concertina around than a full size accordion.

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Given your examples I would personally chose duet, and I that is what I did actually. After about a year on the anglo I have switched to Hayden to freely play accordion-like arangement and modern music.

 

BUT, and this is a big but, there is one huge problem with duets, and it is the one of instrument size/range. With Anglos, your upgrade path is in quality and responsiveness of the box, but with duets it is in straightforward ability to play certain sounds/arrangements. For example, you won’t be able to play this Pokemon tune as written on entry level instruments, because they don’t go up that far and end up on A6 (but it fits one octave lower or transposed). And Elise model doesn’t have any G#/Ab or D#/Eb sounds which cuts out a lot of modern music, which tends to be partially or fully chromatic. Sometimes you will be able to transpose, but annoyingly lot of tunes simply don’t fit on it. Of course you can squeeze a lot from cheapest duets, just be aware of limitations and that you’ll want a bigger (and pricy) box for sure. 

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18 hours ago, Moll Peatly said:

I believe anglos tend to be a little lighter than Englishes, and duets a little heavier.

 

There's a lot of variability, according to make and materials. I had a 30 button Jeffries Anglo which was heavier than either my 48 button Crabb Crane duet or my 42 button Crane & Sons duet.

 

4 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

BUT, and this is a big but, there is one huge problem with duets, and it is the one of instrument size/range.

 

Small MacCanns have a big disadvantage in starting at G4 (above middle C). I'm not so familiar with the range of Haydens, but even a 42 button Crane has a right-hand range from C4 (middle C) up to C6 which is satisfactory for a lot of music.

 

4 hours ago, Łukasz Martynowicz said:

And Elise model doesn’t have any G#/Ab or D#/Eb sounds which cuts out a lot of modern music, which tends to be partially or fully chromatic.

 

If chromatic capability is important then it's worth noting Crane duets are fully chromatic (or very nearly so). For example, a 48 button Crane is fully chromatic in the bass from C3 to G4. The right hand extends from C4 to F6 with only the top two accidentals missing (C#6 and Eb6). There's a lot you can do on a 48 button Crane, and they are not that hard to find.

 

LJ

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On 4/23/2020 at 8:50 AM, holyprince said:

Idk why but ec sound doesnt click as well with me, which is odd since all same except button arrangements.

Funny you should say that ...

 

... because I have the same feeling with the Crane duet. It not only has the same notes as the Anglo, it also has the same kind of hand-straps, so you can give it as much stick as the Anglo. And yet my anglo sounds more full-blooded. Of course my playing on the Crane was more tentative at the start, but that should have changed, at least with my favourite and often-played Crane pieces. But I still get that feeling.

BTW the Anglo I had before I got the Crane is a Stagi metal-ended 30b; the Crane is a wood-ended Lachenal; and the Anglo that I acquired since I've had the Cane is a Dallas-Crabb metal-ended 30b. With regard to the quality of the reeds, one would expect the Lachenal to be between the Stagi and the Crabb. I don't think the difference stems from the end materials -at least, not entirely.

My theory is that the Crane - as a completely chromatic instrument like a piano - is probably tuned in Equal Temperament, whereas the Anglos - as more or less diatonic instruments - may be in some unequal temperament that simply sounds richer, more "organic."

Could this be?

 

Cheers,

John

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4 hours ago, Little John said:

 

There's a lot of variability, according to make and materials. I had a 30 button Jeffries Anglo which was heavier than either my 48 button Crabb Crane duet or my 42 button Crane & Sons duet.

 

 

Small MacCanns have a big disadvantage in starting at G4 (above middle C). I'm not so familiar with the range of Haydens, but even a 42 button Crane has a right-hand range from C4 (middle C) up to C6 which is satisfactory for a lot of music.

 

 

If chromatic capability is important then it's worth noting Crane duets are fully chromatic (or very nearly so). For example, a 48 button Crane is fully chromatic in the bass from C3 to G4. The right hand extends from C4 to F6 with only the top two accidentals missing (C#6 and Eb6). There's a lot you can do on a 48 button Crane, and they are not that hard to find.

 

LJ


 

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough - of course larger duets are perfecly sufficient. So just to clarify: with duets smaller/entry price gives you less buttons (insufficiently so in case of Haydens) and reaching „standard” 46 buttons for Haydens  costs many times more than entry level Elise, with largest and most capable 64 key boxes coming with a car level price tag. And there is only one intermediate Hayden model, the Troubadour, which offers only a slight range improvement for four times the price of Elise.

 

With anglos, 30 buttons is 30 buttons regardles if it’s Rochelle, Wakker A-1 or vintage. You get exactly the same range, what changes is quality, durability, responsiveness and tone. 

 

And from the perspective of a beginner deciding on a system it is IMHO quite cruicial aspect of duets availability and usefulness to consider.

 

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I probally wont win this (still 4 days to go) and idk if it was good deal or not but i saw a 1855 48 key wheatstone currently at 970 usd.  It says its been restored ill copy quote.  "Bellows repaired, replacement papers installed, valves replaced, thumb straps and finger guards re covered. Pads still pretty good so left as is. Brass reeds, old pitch. Instrument is in tune with itself."  Which idk if thats good price or kind of high and i didnt go much further up on it cause i wasnt sure.  But it looked good.  Course anyone higher funds than me welcome to jump on it xD, but i wasnt sure if it was worth it or not.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/133391158234

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21 hours ago, Anglo-Irishman said:

... the Crane is a wood-ended Lachenal; and the Anglo that I acquired since I've had the Cane is a Dallas-Crabb metal-ended 30b. With regard to the quality of the reeds, one would expect the Lachenal to be between the Stagi and the Crabb. I don't think the difference stems from the end materials -at least, not entirely.

 

I'd agree with that. My wooden ended Holden is brighter than my metal ended Dipper. If the end material was important you'd expect the opposite.

 

21 hours ago, Anglo-Irishman said:

My theory is that the Crane - as a completely chromatic instrument like a piano - is probably tuned in Equal Temperament, whereas the Anglos - as more or less diatonic instruments - may be in some unequal temperament that simply sounds richer, more "organic."

Could this be?

 

I doubt it. I had a Crabb Crane duet re-tuned from equal temperament to fifth comma mean tone. It made the harmonies sweeter but didn't otherwise alter the tone. Most Anglos are tuned ET nowadays anyway.

 

21 hours ago, Anglo-Irishman said:

And yet my anglo sounds more full-blooded.

 

The difference is more likely to be the reeds. You might feel quite differently about the Crane if it was a Crabb. My first Crane was a 35 button Crabb. It looked awful! The ends were plywood held on with round-topped wood screws. But it sounded good.

 

LJ

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1 hour ago, Little John said:

Most Anglos are tuned ET nowadays anyway.

Well, then, I must get out my chromatic tuner and see if we can rule out Temperament as a significant difference.

Cheers,

John

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Btw thanks for all comments.  Not sure if those saw link, but will that one concertina be ok for starting out on, link is above.  I hope its not worth less than what im bidding at idk values.  

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7 minutes ago, holyprince said:

Btw thanks for all comments.  Not sure if those saw link, but will that one concertina be ok for starting out on, link is above.  I hope its not worth less than what im bidding at idk values.  

 

As an early wooden ended brass reeded instrument I'd guess it may be relatively quiet and not terribly fast, plus because it's in old pitch you likely won't be able to play it in a group with modern instruments. On the other hand a quiet instrument may be an advantage for a beginner who will be practising in a house shared with other people, and if it's in a meantone temperament it could have a sweet sound that would be nice for solo playing and song accompaniment. The seller has good feedback so hopefully he's describing the condition honestly. No opinion on the value.

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57 minutes ago, alex_holden said:

 

As an early wooden ended brass reeded instrument I'd guess it may be relatively quiet and not terribly fast, plus because it's in old pitch you likely won't be able to play it in a group with modern instruments. On the other hand a quiet instrument may be an advantage for a beginner who will be practising in a house shared with other people, and if it's in a meantone temperament it could have a sweet sound that would be nice for solo playing and song accompaniment. The seller has good feedback so hopefully he's describing the condition honestly. No opinion on the value.

Oh i dont mind it being more quiet i will mostly be solo, now on the fast, does it mean i cant play like jigs and shanties thats more fast beat, or is that something else? Idk bout play speeds, if thats something you can upgrade.  

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playing speed (with "faster" tunes like jigs, reels or hornpipes) is undoubtedly encouraged by excellent reeds; if you would be learning on a "slow" instrument, it might frustrate as well as fruitfully challenge you (I experienced the latter, however the reeds were decent, but with a significant lack of air supply).

 

best wishes - ?

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I messaged him and he said its ok if i want to retract my bid and welcomed me to land of concertinas haha.  How can you tell if a concertina has 'fast' action or capable of playing faster songs.  Is it only new concertinas only like everything slow thats old.

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13 minutes ago, holyprince said:

How can you tell if a concertina has 'fast' action or capable of playing faster songs.

 

Only really by playing it; but that said, a reputable seller will be able to you give you a good idea. And in general, since it's a desirable property, the faster it is the more expensive it's likely to be.

 

13 minutes ago, holyprince said:

Is it only new concertinas only like everything slow thats old.

 

Not at all. It depends basically on two things. (1) How well-made the reeds are; that is how well the reeds fit the frame they are held in. (2) How well the reeds have been set; too high and they will be slow to start, too low and they won't sound at all. (1) is down to the maker but but a good tuner/repairman can sort out (2). There are plenty of old Wheatstones, Jeffries and other makes that are fast.

 

LJ

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I found a jack english concertina for 285 free shipping so im getting that.  It doesnt come with tutor book or fingering chart.  Im trying to find place to buy those but not having any luck.  Only fingering charts im seeing is for 48+.  Does anyone know where i can find some learning material or tutor book made for jackie/jack.

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1 hour ago, holyprince said:

I found a jack english concertina for 285 free shipping so im getting that.  It doesnt come with tutor book or fingering chart.  Im trying to find place to buy those but not having any luck.  Only fingering charts im seeing is for 48+.  Does anyone know where i can find some learning material or tutor book made for jackie/jack.

 

According to the manufacturer's website, it's the same as the Jackie except an octave lower:

http://www.concertinaconnection.com/jackie layout.htm

 

You might be able to order the tutor book direct from Concertina Connection. A tutor for a standard 48 button treble might still be helpful even if not all of the tunes in it will fit on the Jack.

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