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scoopet

Baritone treble lachenal english

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Posted (edited)

Has anyone ever seen or owned a baritone treble edeophone or new model.Did lachenal make them or was it purely a Wheatstone thing?

Best wishes simon

Edited by scoopet

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I have seen big size English Edeophones such as this one below. I assume it’s a baritone treble, not sure about bass Edeophones.

 

DBE1C713-6775-4E0B-97C5-B6519AA841AC.jpeg

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Thanks rcr......is that not a tenor treble?

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35 minutes ago, scoopet said:

Thanks rcr......is that not a tenor treble?

No idea as I don’t own it and neither have I owned a tenor treble or baritone before so I couldn’t tell from the photo (All I know is that they are big!). I guess judging by the size of it it must have large reeds, so perhaps a baritone?. I own an Edeophone duet 63 key which is obviously bigger than the standard Edeophone English size and has very low notes on the left side (can’t remember what the lowest notes are), wouldn’t that fit into the tenor treble/baritone range? It’s known that Lachenal made a LOT more concertinas than Wheatstone,  so no reason to think why they wouldn’t experiment with different octave ranges. 

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Posted (edited)

Just found that Wim Wakker advertised an amboyna EC Edeophone few years ago: 

 

How rare is that!? I can only assume Lachenal didn’t make many of these with the fear that they would roll and fall of the table! (not uncommon with Edeophones really) Who knows... 

Edited by rcr27

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Yes , what a great looking instrument........but a baritone not a baritone treble!!

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, rcr27 said:

have seen big size English Edeophones such as this one below. I assume it’s a baritone treble, not sure about bass Edeophones.

 

21 hours ago, rcr27 said:

Just found that Wim Wakker advertised an amboyna EC Edeophone few years ago:  "For sale is a rare Lachenal Edeophone baritone from ca. 1925, amboyna ends with gold plated keys/fittings."

 

As scoopet said, that's a baritone, not a baritone-treble.  The term "baritone-treble" has a very specific meaning, at least in Wheatstone's terminology.  It doesn't just mean "big" or "low", and it's actually significantly different from simply "baritone".

 

The buttons/notes of a baritone are arranged just like those of a "treble", except that they sound an octave lower for the same fingering.  On a baritone-treble, the same fingering as for a treble gives the same pitches as a treble, though that fingering is shifted "upward" in the button array.  The lower notes, like the lower notes on a tenor-treble are positioned in a downward continuation of the treble array, a continuation which is unambiguous in Wheatstone's layout for the English concertina.  (In fact, the tenor-treble is such a downward continuation of the treble, and the baritone-treble is just a further continuation.)

 

Because the two notes differing in pitch by an octave are on opposite ends of the instrument, a most obvious consequence of the difference between a baritone and a baritone-treble is that each note of a given pitch is found on opposite ends of the two types.  E.g., middle C is in the left hand on a baritone-treble -- as on a treble or tenor-treble, -- but in the right hand on an "ordinary" baritone.

 

21 hours ago, rcr27 said:

I can only assume Lachenal didn’t make many of these with the fear that they would roll and fall of the table!

 

They -- and their customers -- didn't seem to be worried about the possibility of Edeophones "rolling" off of a table.  Probably most of those who played them -- especially bigger ones -- did so in special environments (on stage? in a home parlor?), not in a pub session where they'd leave their instrument unattended on a table as they went to the loo or to get a fresh drink.  (In modern times, I have seen treble Edeophones in sessions, but I've never seen one roll off a table, nor even toward the edge of one.)

 

That particular one is "rare", because in addition to baritones being far less common than trebles and Edeophones being the "deluxe" (and therefore most expensive and less common) Lachenal model, use of amboyna wood and gold plate was very expensive.  Such instruments were also given extra care in their craftsmanship... another cost.

 

 

 

Edited by JimLucas

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On 3/31/2020 at 4:34 PM, scoopet said:

Has anyone ever seen or owned a baritone treble edeophone or new model.Did lachenal make them or was it purely a Wheatstone thing?

 

I have never seen one, but I've only seen a couple of Wheatstone ones, and heard of a few more.  (Has anybody counted how many there are in the ledgers?)

 

The persons more likely to know are the full-time restorers and dealers, including of course Chris Algar, and our "local" Lachenal expert, Dowright.

 

I'm guessing -- though it is only a guess -- that it wasn't a "standard" Lachenal model.  (Have you checked the old price lists on concertina.com?)  But I'd be surprised if they didn't make at least a couple... as custom orders.

 

Although it wasn't part of your question, I will mention that I once (1975?) had the pleasure of trying a 48-button, double-action, ebony-ended, G-bass Edeophone.  (That's right, two octaves below a 48-button treble.)  Alas, it was not for sale!

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Jim!....here's an instrument layout for you to get your head around.....

The reason I asked is because I have  a baritone edeophone pitched in b flat, an old salvation army concertina.

So every note is a tone lower than a normal baritone.Which means that you can play it exactly as a normal baritone , but it sounds a tone lower.Or if you play it 2 rows forward, it plays as a normal (baritone )treble with the low notes lying below as you would expect for a BT, ..... except however that the b flats and e flats are in the middle rows........

   I think that makes sense!!!

 

I can see no mention of baritone trebles in the lachenal pricelists of the 20s and 30s.

 

I remember someone counting the number of aeola BTs in the Wheatstone ledgers a few years ago and there being a total of just over 100 ish model 14, 15 and 16s in total.....

 

Edited by scoopet

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Posted (edited)

Jim,  I  did  count  all the  Baritone Trebles   in the ledgers some years ago , and I  have the  figures  noted somewhere,  the  numbers for  each  of the models  14,15 and 16  were not high... in the  teens  only  as I  recall.  There is  a thread on Cnet  (probably  10  years  ago)  with  my findings  at the time when i first came  into ownership  of mine.  Other people  here  have  suggested  that  they  have  a B/Treble  that is  not  listed as such  so  perhaps there are a few  more about.

 

Lachenal  Baritone /Trebles?  I  could find  a place   for  a New Model  version!  

Edited by Geoff Wooff

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Posted (edited)

Hi Geoff,

   Did you count them all!!!

    You need to spend your money on croissants and red wine over the next few months , not lachenal new models...:-)

Edited by scoopet

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Geoff Wooff said:

Lachenal  Baritone /Trebles?  I  could find  a place   for  a New Model  version!

 

My friend Jane in Stockholm has a superb -- and unusual -- ebony-ended New Model baritone, though not a bari-treble.  It's larger than normal and lightly stretched, with a very rich sound.

 

You should be able to see it and test it if you come to next year's Scandinavian Squeeze-In.  8^)  It would have been at this year's (as also last year) if we hadn't had to cancel the event.

 

 

Edited by JimLucas

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I think a few forum members have new model baritones, and searching leads to about 3 edeophone baritones sold over the years, but no baritone trebles.

  I'm guessing that if you and Geoff haven't come across any over the years, they probably don't exist.

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Jeff Warner has an ebony- or ebonized-ended Edeophone baritone. About 16 years ago I remember him giving it to Ken Sweeney to repair some broken fretwork. On a later trip to New Hampshire I saw Jeff playing it after the repairs were done. Ken had fixed it so you couldn't even see where the damage had been. A very nice box.

 

Ken

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3 hours ago, scoopet said:

I remember someone counting the number of aeola BTs in the Wheatstone ledgers a few years ago and there being a total of just over 100 ish model 14, 15 and 16s in total.....

 

I received that correspondence from Michael Piercall in the U.S.

The total was 123, between serial Nos.29678 and 35450, covering 1923-1943.

The breakdown was:

                                -model 14 - 42

                                -model 15 - 18

                               -model 16 - 64

                             Plus 1 "miscellaneous"  , a 52 button instrument

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Thanks for that John.If Wheatstone thought it was a viable and saleable instrument to make, I'm surprised that lachenal didn't make any to compete?

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3 hours ago, scoopet said:

If Wheatstone thought it was a viable and saleable instrument to make, I'm surprised that lachenal didn't make any to compete?

 

Good point, especially when it's not really a different concept, but simply an extension of the tenor-treble concept.

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Lachenal Baritone English concertinas. My sample of English Lachenals currently numbers 2702; hopefully, it is pretty representative of the 60,000 plus population. Baritone English represent 2 per cent of total. First baritone in sample is No 10376. First 56-key is No 11356. Of course, both made by "Louis Lachenal" (i.e., before "Lachenal & Co.")

Total baritones in the data = 54.

a)    16 New Model (12 are 48 key, 1 is 56 key; and 3 are 62 key, 64 key, and 65 key, respectively.

b)      7 Inimitable (all 48 key)

c)      3 Excelsior (all 48 key)

d)      7 Edeophones (5 are 48 key, 1 is a 56 key, and 1 is a 35 key).

e)   21 Other (12 are 48 key, 6 are 56 key, and 3 are 35 key). Some of these are probably (a), (b), (c),  or (d), but I was not provided fuller descriptions.

There is also a 31-key Baritone/Bass. I have no idea what the 35-key ones are like; maybe they really are also Baritone/Bass. (Maybe my friend, Chris, will know more about them.)

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