Neil Thornock Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Does anyone know of an English concertina tuned such that any of the notes are different on push vs pull? For example, I'm wondering about a meantone-tuned instrument with a D# and a Db on one key, extending the range of keys. I have my doubts about the practicality but wonder if it has ever been tried and/or could be practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) I have never heard of anybody trying such a thing but I doubt it would be of practical use. Currently with the 14 semitones to the octave on the English it is possible to play scales in Eb, Bb, F, C, G, D, A and E without going 'out of patern'. To me 'out of Patern ' means that some consecutive notes of a scale will occur on the same side of the instrument. To test this play a scale of Eb. Each consecutive note will be on opposite sides of the instrument. Now do the same thing starting on D#. Straight away the first two notes ascending will be on the same side. This out of patern scale will get worse as one moves into ever flater and sharper keys. The importance of this regularly alternating patern becomes evident when playing chords , for the memory of the shapes, and transposing , where the memorised logic will take the player to the correct buttons. What I am saying is that to extend the sweetness of a Meantone tuning system into more remote key signatures than those 'in patern' keys would not be practical. At the outer edges of these eight key signatures problems might already begin to occur . Edited February 17, 2020 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Thornock Posted February 17, 2020 Author Share Posted February 17, 2020 Ah that is an interesting point. I can relate because my Jack is missing enough notes to make even some of those keys "out of pattern" (if I understand you correctly). The logic of EC layout is part of its charm. I also can't get my head around what it would do to having to be mindful of push vs pull (never having played Anglo). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little John Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 As Geoff points out, there are 14 buttons to the octave which means you can have both Eb and D#, and likewise both Ab and G#. With meantone tuning these will be tuned differently. Tuned to meantone an English can still play in all keys from three flats to four sharps, which is surely sufficient for most mortals! But to answer your question about Anglo-style buttons on an English. Yes, it's vanishingly rare but I know of at least one. Steve Turner's English has five buttons at the bottom end which have Anglo action. There isn't a clear logic to them (I've played it) but the aim seems to be to extend the range downward without making the instrument too large. On my own Crane system duet (which is closely related to the English) I have four Anglo buttons. Three are to extend the range downward without increasing the size. The fourth is to give me a choice of Eb or D# as it's tuned to fifth comma meantone. (It doesn't have the "duplications" of an English so it's "limited" to keys from two flats to three sharps. That's hardly a limitation at all, except occasionally an E minor tune calls for a B major chord; hence the D#.) LJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Neil Thornock said: Ah that is an interesting point. I can relate because my Jack is missing enough notes to make even some of those keys "out of pattern" (if I understand you correctly). The logic of EC layout is part of its charm. I also can't get my head around what it would do to having to be mindful of push vs pull (never having played Anglo). As an example of what one can do when keeping 'in pattern' I attach a link; On this I play a simple tune in seven different keys, in one 2 minute take . This is not done by remembering the position of all the notes for all the keys but by following the logic of the shapes of the patterns. Some mistakes are inevitable when fooling around like this . Obviously it is possible to play in any key on the English if one just learns a tune in a particular key and memorises the position of the buttons /sequence and that is what is normally done however, expanding one's mental map of the keyboard by playing a tune in different keys and different octaves can be most beneficial. For clarity the key signatures are Dm, Gm, Cm, Am, Em, F#m and Bm . Edited February 18, 2020 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Thornock Posted February 18, 2020 Author Share Posted February 18, 2020 LJ, wow -- the numbers of button layouts in the concertina seems bewildering enough as it is. I suppose it's a small enough instrument to invite experimentation. EC made sense to me after a few months ... I imagine any other system would take a similar investment. Geoff, beautiful and inspiring playing (despite any so-called mistakes ). Thank you for the demo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little John Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 15 minutes ago, Neil Thornock said: EC made sense to me after a few months ... I imagine any other system would take a similar investment. Not necessarily. You will have developed bellows control and got used to the feel of buttons under your fingers, so it should be quicker second time around. I started on the EC myself (I didn't know duets existed when I got my first). I'm very interested in harmonising tunes. Whilst it can be done on the EC, for most people it comes more naturally to separate the melody from the accompaniment. I made the transition to Crane duet after about two years. LJ 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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