Any opinions on Uni-Directional keyboard layout for Duet Concertinas?

[W3DW]

26 minutes ago, JimLucas said:

My perception* of the keyboard layout is independent, not related to the hand. 

I agree.  If I can play it on the right, I can play it on the left with barely a bump.  Also, I warm up playing parallel octaves, thirds and tenths so that helps. 

 

Daniel 

[rlgph]

Thank you JimLucas and W3DW for replying with answers to my curiosity about transference of skills from one hand to the other.

[rlgph]

4 hours ago, RAc said:

 

Your premise is wrong (at least to me). On a duet, the right hand side takes care of the melody, the left hand side is in charge of the accompaniment. There is nothing that needs to be translated.

 

You have apparently misread my post.  I did not state a premise.  I stated some results about my own playing that gave me insight into learning transference from one hand to the other in the case of a mirrored left side, and asked for information from others about whether similar transference occurred for a non-mirrored left side.  I have many other interests beyond playing concertina, although i do occasionally seek to utilize my concertina playing to give me insight into those other interests.

 

With regard to left hand accompaniment in actually playing tunes, however, i find it surprising that you (RAc) say that you don't think that the lower octave adds anything significant.  I personally find it much more interesting to insert octave (or other parallel key) snippets as accompaniment than the more common chord or partial chord inserts.

 

Becoming a good musician is only one of my goals, so i will continue to theorize and seek experimental data because doing so satisfies my intellectual curiosity.  I accept that i will never become an outstanding (or maybe not even good) musician, but so long as playing is enjoyable, i will do so.

Edited February 5, 2020 by rlgph

[RAc]

6 hours ago, rlgph said:

You have apparently misread my post.  I did not state a premise.  I stated some results about my own playing that gave me insight into learning transference from one hand to the other in the case of a mirrored left side, and asked for information from others about whether similar transference occurred for a non-mirrored left side.  I have many other interests beyond playing concertina, although i do occasionally seek to utilize my concertina playing to give me insight into those other interests.

 

 

Whichever, fine. Yet you keep using the term "transfer," which implies that there is something significant to be translated/transferred or whatever here. I don't think there is, but if you think so, I won't argue.

 

If you like to muse about playing rather than play, that's fine too. We're all individuals (except for me, of course). However, at times lengthy discussions to me appear like people sitting in a pub in Hawaii, discussing from dawn to dusk whether swimming in the sea or hiking a mountain is a better way to spend the day. Just do either, it'll be fun and satisfying, as long as you do something, but either will be more yielding than talking about it, no?

 

 

[JimLucas]

9 hours ago, RAc said:

We're all individuals (except for me, of course).

 

Ah, lucky you!  Many's the time I wished I were multiple individuals, in order to do more things at once.  8^)

[cdelta]

I appreciate all of the feedback from folks. 

I'm certainly enjoying playing my Beaumont with the standard non-mirrored layout, but I'd certainly jump at any chance to noodle around on a mirrored instrument if I can.

I did check in with Button Box and they said that they probably wouldn't want to attempt a mirrored layout. It would end up costing a pretty penny to pay them to do the R&D to figure out how to make the alternate layout.

[W3DW]

10 hours ago, cdelta said:

... do the R&D to figure out how to make the alternate layout.

Conceptually, it's simple - just flip your template or software image and go to work.  

[RAc]

3 hours ago, W3DW said:

Conceptually, it's simple - just flip your template or software image and go to work.  

 

...at first approximation?

 

What if there is an air button of the left? What if the hand rail isn't centered horizontally, and its shifting requires fretwork redesign?

 

Also, I believe that you would not only have to flip the reed pan but also the fretwork and the slope of the reed pan (if there is one; on most duets I believe the reed pan is sloped).

 

Very likely there are also sound balance issues to be considered...

[W3DW]

Quite true.  The OP was considering the possibility of a mirrored Button Box Beaumont, a hybrid without a left air button or sloped reed pan, and reversing the action, reed pan and fretwork patterns would provide a solid starting point. But building everything in reverse would be a pain in the neck, so I'm not surprised they would prefer not to do so. 

 

[Jim2010]

I am not currently a Hayden duet player, so my interest in this topic is based on the question of which keyboard I would want if I were to buy one.  I am a classical guitarist who also has played the lute, treble and tenor viols, and treble and tenor recorders. As a music major in college, I had to pass a proficiency exam in piano. I can read various clefs and tablatures. I imagine I could learn to play using either of the duet Hayden fingerings (I haven't looked at other duet systems).

There has been mention of considering how the keyboards relate to the piano keyboard, but I think it better to think of them in relation to the harp. The harp strings are in the middle of the two hands and the movement of hands is mirrored. The concertina reeds are in the middle of the two hands, too. Similarly, we (our thinking apparatus) are in the middle of our arms and legs, which can be thought of as "naturally" mirroring. I think mirroring has a lot going for it.

From a purely musical perspective (i.e. ignoring availability of instruments, teachers and tutors, ease of resale, etc.), I would go with the mirrored keyboard. As a beginner, I have the luxury to choose either keyboard, but only if the concertina that I want to play for musical reasons (sonority, range, playability) and cost comes with both options. I don't know if I would reject an otherwise ideal instrument simply because it didn't have a mirrored option.

[Don Taylor]

I am not going to revive the arguments about the mirrored layout vs. the standard Hayden, you can go back in the forum for several discussions about this. 

 

AFAIK only one member here uses and espouses the mirrored layout and that is a real problem.  If you do choose the mirrored system then only one maker (Wim Walker/Concertina Connection) makes them.  The choices for Haydens are already quite limited so you would be restricting yourself even further.  If later you decide to sell a mirrored Hayden then I suspect your potential world market can be counted on the fingers of one hand - it might even be just the thumb...

 

You could ask Wim how many he has made.

 

 

 

[Jim2010]

16 minutes ago, Don Taylor said:

"...If later you decide to sell a mirrored Hayden then I suspect your potential world market can be counted on the fingers of one hand - it might even be just the thumb...

 

You could ask Wim how many he has made."

 

 

 

Thank you Don. Your points are well taken. I realize the practical problems if I were to go that route.

Best,

JIm