Una

[Una]

My head is sore from looking at information on concertinas. My son is ready to move on from the Rochelle he has had a loan of for the past few months. He is enjoying the concertina very much having original started on whistle and flute over 10 years ago. Originally he was advised that he should move on to a 30 button lachenal but having read loads these past few days it would seem these are considered student instruments. I have recently seen a J Crabb and a H Crabb for sale at just over £2k which is just about in our budget.  I am in a quandary if I should buy something like the Crabb or would it be a safer bet to go with one of the hybrids. One problem I have is that most concertina sellers are nowhere near London so it's difficult to try any other concertinas out. Thanks in advance for any advice. 

[cassqueeze]

I wouldn't consider a Lachenal a student instrument.  A 30 key Lachenal Anglo in good condition - preferably one with steel rather than wooden ends - is a fine instrument for the serious player. The Crabbs are also very good- often a softer tone.  Do check that the ones you are looking at are Anglos and not English or duets. 

[LateToTheGame]

With any antique instrument you would be best to shop through a dealer like Chris Algar at Barleycorn Concertinas, or have a trusted teacher look at the instrument in question. There is a huge variation in playability and sound from most of the  recognized big name older instruments.  Factors like the year it was made play into its quality.  And how well or poorly it was maintained or stored will be huge factors as well.   Barleycorn concertinas goes over every instrument they sell.  

 

There are other makers, restorers and shops out there. So continue to ask for recommendations on this forum. 

 

If you do buy from a private party I'd recommend you have a trusted teacher look at the instrument both inside and out, before you put that kind of money down. 

 

As for the definition of student instrument verses professional instruments---  It is unlikely you will find a "pro" instrument in that price range. But depending on your son's level of interest you will find something levels above his Rochelle that will either be a stepping stone or a lifetime instrument.

 

Good luck.  You will find the right instrument out their somewhere.

[saguaro_squeezer]

Lachenal made a whole range of instruments, not just student ones.  But, if your budget is 2000 GBP, I don't think you'll have trouble finding a good instrument.  Chris Algar, Theo Gibb, AW Norman, Nigel Sture, Steve Chambers ... I know that I'll miss a few and I apologize ... all sell good quality instruments,  Actually, so do many of the private sellers on this board.

 

Good luck and happy hunting!

[Roger Hare]

11 hours ago, Una said:

'''Originally he was advised that he should move on to a 30 button lachenal but having read

loads, these past few days it would seem these are considered student instruments....

Yes, a 30-button is a good idea. The idea that Lachenals are student instruments seems to me

to be a fairly extreme position? These days, my first reaction to such a statement would be to

examine the bona-fides of the 'stater' quite carefully (I do have a nasty, suspicious mind...?).

 

Five years in to this concertina nonsense, I have acquired several Lachenals - all Anglos, I have a

mix of keys and configuration C/G, G/D. Bb/F,  20- 26- 30- buttons. Three at least are very, very good

instruments. Only one could be regarded as a 'beater' (and it was specifically bought with that prior

knowledge). The rest are perfectly acceptable instruments suitable for use by 'improver' standard

players (which these days,  is what I  consider myself to be). 

 

5 hours ago, saguaro_squeezer said:

... Chris Algar, Theo Gibb, AW Norman, Nigel Sture, Steve Chambers...

If you buy an instrument from any of these reputable dealers, you won't go far wrong - I have used

three of the above, and would recommend any of them (though the 'best' of my instruments was

bought privately from a member of this parish...). 

 

If the OP is considering spending as much as £2k on an instrument, it is worth considering spending

a day travelling to and from a 'distant' dealer to work 'face to face' and to try out a variety of decent

'tinas. I've done this at least three times, and had three nice days out on the choo-choo (????),

plus adding three decent instruments to my collection.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by lachenal74693

[Richard Mellish]

9 hours ago, lachenal74693 said:

If you buy an instrument from any of these reputable dealers, you won't go far wrong

 

 

I bought an instrument from a dealer. (I will not name which dealer or what instrument, except that it is a concertina of a respectable make.) It had supposedly been thoroughly restored. A while later I took it to an expert. (I will not name which expert.)

The expert's advice was that the dealer had paid a restorer only as much as necessary to have it put into reasonable condition, rather than paying somewhat more (but not a huge amount more) to have it put into first class condition. I decided to pay the expert to do a proper job.

As to what moral or what practical advice to draw from that, I'm not really sure.

[Roger Hare]

1 hour ago, Richard Mellish said:

...As to what moral or what practical advice to draw from that, I'm not really sure.

Me neither! Sorry to hear your unfortunate experience. It's a little trite to say 'there's an exception

to every rule', but I suppose it's a cliche because it's true(-ish). Perhaps I've just been lucky...

Edited January 1, 2020 by lachenal74693

[wunks]

1 hour ago, lachenal74693 said:

Me neither! Sorry to hear your unfortunate experience. It's a little trite to say 'there's an exception

to every rule', but I suppose it's a cliche because it's true(-ish). Perhaps I've just been lucky...

Maybe a better cliche would be "caveat emptor"

[saguaro_squeezer]

I've been very lucky, I guess.  But I'm also lucky to have a top-notch repairman nearby that can help me with little glitches as the concertina becomes used to our desert climate.  And they're always some adjustment ... except for the big Maccann that I bought from Theo and the Crabb 48 from Little John.

 

But Una, I will jump onto the "try as many as you can" bandwagon.  And you're lucky, at least you're in the UK.  Over here, we almost always have to buy from a distance.

 

Now hopefully, Trump or Boris won't cause the prices to go through the roof ?  

[Una]

16 hours ago, saguaro_squeezer said:

Lachenal made a whole range of instruments, not just student ones.  But, if your budget is 2000 GBP, I don't think you'll have trouble finding a good instrument.  Chris Algar, Theo Gibb, AW Norman, Nigel Sture, Steve Chambers ... I know that I'll miss a few and I apologize ... all sell good quality instruments,  Actually, so do many of the private sellers on this board.

 

Good luck and happy hunting!

 

[Una]

Thank you so much for your input. I am beginning to understand much more of what I am reading about this instrument. Sometimes I wish my son had simply stayed with flute instead of wishing to branch out and expand his repertoire. I was just reading on irishconcertina.com that I should not really be considering buying "old" concertinas as old does not equate to good - just as I was beginning to think I was going to plump for a J Crabb 30 key c/g numbered 1887 that I saw on donedeal.ie and concertinas for sale - it was made circa 1870. On there there is also a 2015 Connor which has been repaired by AC Norman and a deluxe Anglo Marcus. All come in my price range - just but should I opt for a maker/repairer who is alive but it's a hybrid or the Crabb. I am sure my son will continue to keep the flute as his main instrument but you  never know. I blame the music teacher - my son had wanted to learn the button accordion but as my daughter was already learning that teacher thought better to do another instrument and suggested the pesky concertina - at least it's portable. 

[saguaro_squeezer]

i had a Conner Crane Duet and John Conner made SUPERB instruments.  I'd look seriously at that one.

[Roger Hare]

9 hours ago, Una said:

...I was just reading on irishconcertina.com that I should not really be considering buying "old" concertinas

as old does not equate to good...

I wasn't able to connect to that site, but that looks exactly like the sort of special pleading, of which I am very, very

suspicious. What is the provenance of the site? Who is behind it - perhaps a dealer in modern, cheap(ish) hybrid

instruments aimed at the ITM market? Maybe I'm overly cynical, but I think the world is full of bad people whose

main aim in life is to slip their grubby hands into my pockets, exiting with a fistful of my money. I do not approve

of this...?

 

IMO, it's verging on sharp practice to generalise and say that buying 'old' is bad for the largely bogus reason that

'old does not equate to good'. If this is true, it is true only part of the time...

 

Remember, it's also true that 'new does not equate to good' - possibly truer than the claimed converse, certainly as

far as the cheaper hybrid instruments are concerned.

 

However, the top level hybrids you mention are grand. In view of what SS said in his earlier post (is the Connor a

hybrid?), I'm going to muddy the waters even further and add that I have a 30-button Marcus G/D de-luxe myself -

bought 2nd-hand from a member of this parish. It's great - I use it all the time for t'Morris. Impressively loud too -

blow yer socks off two fields away. If t'were me though, I'd be tempted to try the Crabb, though of course, it's in

Ireland. You might find an equally acceptable instrument nearer home...

 

Roger

 

[Aside: It's refreshing to see a discussion about this 'end' of the market. In another concertina forum to which I subscribe, there are constantly discussions about

whether to spend $400 on a Chinese 30-button hybrid, or spend $100 more to get a decent 20-button vintage instrument. I'd like to be here in 50 years time (I won't

be!) to see how many of the cheaper modern hybrid-style instruments are still squeezable, compared to the current inventory of 'bad' old concertinas. A concertina

which is (say) 100 years old at the moment will then be 150 years old - and with a little bit of luck, and a following wind, still squeezable...]

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by lachenal74693

[Devils' Dream]

From my "limited" observations, the construction of the newer, better known hybrids is overall exceptional and should prove long-lasting.  Certainly as good as or better than the good old stuff.  The truly "restored" (i.e. rebuilt) old stuff is good. I mean so much of them is new (bellows, action, pads, etc.) that they will truly last another lifetime.  Cosmetically fixed up old stuff is what it is.

But the new hybrids, take them apart, and one can see the hardware, construction, tolerances, fit and materials are usually (if not always) likely to be durable.  The one "downside" is they sometimes sound like hybrids.    

Disclosure: Previous Wheatstone owner, current Morse owner. 

[LateToTheGame]

I had a conner for years.  It was very very nice.  Again, who has been playing it and where it has been will make a big difference. If you are buying used make sure you know your seller. And make sure you can return if it you don't like it.  And best, play it in person.  Sometimes Hobgoblin has a Connor.

 

Conner's are not hybrids, but rather made on the Wheatstone model by John Connor, now retired.  He was a maker at the  Wheatstone Co. who struck out on on his own.  Some of his concertinas used salvaged concertina reeds, others new I believe.  He initially started out sourcing reeds with Chris Alger's Barleycorn Concertina company if I remember correctly.  I may be wrong on that detail. 

 

I think the Wheatstone key layout is what you have on that Rochelle,   But a lot of players moved towards the Jeffries.  The differences are subtle, with 3 or 4 notes in different places on the upper right hand. The most relevant to a new player the C# placement.

 

After 20 years of play my Connor appreciated a fresh tuning and adjustment by a pro (Greg J) here in the states.  But the bellows and action were still fine and it certainly remained playable as it was. 

 

 

At your price  you can also go down the hybrid/true concertina reed instrument rabbit hole.  Many people with your budget and your son's experience are very happy with the hybrid concertinas out there.  The plus side is they can be purchased new off the shelf with a warranty from someplace like the Irish Concertina Company or the Button Box in the US and often sound very good.  I have heard Morse  played very well. Hybirds can sometimes sound like small accordions rather than true concertinas.  But not always. And the action can be a mite slower, but hybrid makers have been perfecting their craft for the last 20 years or so and some sound very nice.

 

You might want to start another discussion  looking for recommendations on hybrids as well. 

[Notemaker]

I am the least qualified on this board to address your question.

But;

 

I followed a similar path to your son. Made/play PVC flutes, play ITM on things, but not solely, also love Morris played on Tina or Accordion. And my first Anglo had accordion reeds in it.

As well I recently won, by Angelic intervention I now believe, a 30 button C/G Crabb Anglo. See  " the instrument was made jointly by my late father Henry Joseph (1911-1981) and late brother Henry Neville (1938-1989) "

My Tina Link from the thread about it here on CN. I am now revising my Anglo Tina skills on it.

 

So I guess I am in a good position to relate useful review pointers.

 

First things first, the Crabb, steel reeds and brass shoes, is another world entirely from my old Accordion reed Tina.

 

The best way I can verbalize what is so different between them is with the words 'velvety' on the Crabb, as opposed to 'squingy squeaky' on my old Tina, especially on mid range to higher notes.

IOW I do not need to back off bellows when in the low and high parts of tunes like 'The Siverspear' on the Crabb like I used have to do on my old box.

 

OTOH I would not go as far as to say it 'honks' like some of the other Tinas I have heard. Somebody here used the word 'softer' about the Crabb, and I would agree, but it is most certainly not weaker in any way because of it. In fact in ITM it compliments very well  Violin / Pipes - I have, and play a bit on both of those. It is just another, lovely yummie, flavor of Tina sound.

 

Were I shopping with a fat wallet, 'action' would be my next consideration.

 

Mine is 'hook-n-spring' type action, and it plays just fine. Modern hybrids tend to be 'riveted lever' type action. Read someplace that this type action is a tad quicker than mine. But I just don't know which is better for your son. Perhaps some of our members here, better informed than I, can address this side of it?

Last issue.

 

"New is better". Well as somebody else has pointed out, that is not really correct. Indeed, among ITM players, the opposite appears to be the rule. See Noel Hill for more on that one.

 

So all in all I would go for the 1870 Crabb if I wanted to get that velvety sound, but if I wanted to get a modern hybrid I would begin to compare those. Because to buy that velvety sound new is a couple of thousand dollars more than you have to spend. Eg a Wally Carrol, $6250.00 or Suttner, $ 3942.00. However you should be aware that those retain their value very well and you may be able to sell either later for more than you paid for it. I see that Caitlin McGowan plays a Carrol model!

Hope that helps you make a good choice.

 

 

 

 

[Roger Hare]

8 hours ago, Notemaker said:

...as somebody else has pointed out, that is not really correct. Indeed, among ITM players, the opposite appears

to be the rule. See Noel Hill for more on that one...

Aye, 'twas me. I was curious and finally tracked down what I suspect is the site to which the OP was referring. It

contains the following remarkable (to me) statement:

 

"...Along with the wheatstone you should know that Latchenal made over 150,000 concertinas and stopped back in

1920’s which means they are all over 100 years old and mostly Rubbish. Old is not good when buying an instrument..." 

 

These sweeping generalisations seem a tad more extreme than was hinted at by the OP? It seems to be a one-shot

website consisting of one page only, with no indication that the author is a player, a dealer, or w.h.y. Bit flaky IMO...

 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by lachenal74693

[Theo]

Regarding Crabb concertina numbered 1887, this was almost certainly not made circa 1870.  Geoff Crabb who worked in the family business will be able to provide a date, but I suspect it’s from the mid 20th century with that number.  The Crabb family made many superb concertinas, but later they, like Wheatstone were forced to build down to a price when concertinas became unpopular in the mid 20th century.  
 

Concertinas are very individual instruments and you can’t apply general statements to a particular make.  The only way you can be sure you have the right instrument is to actually play it.  If you are unable to travel then any decent retailer will have a process for letting you have an instrument on approval.