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Isel

WTB C air button

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P.S. I can see a way of upping the reed count to 51 buttons for a Hayden  Duet in a 6.25 Hexagon, without compromising the  reed scale of the lower pitch reeds.  This would not easy but it would be just possible, and might mean leaving out an air button.

As mentioned you just need to play a note to evacuate the air before putting the concertina away in it's case, and I have heard this done by many English concertina players over the years.

Inventor.  

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Ha ha...I was just thinking about that question Brian.:D.. so this is my following comment:

Brian, lately I am thinking about your ( and other valuable suggestions) proposals to add some buttons to a 46 key arrangement , that were explained in the interesting post Don Taylor opened in 2015 (  here ). I like your 50 keys suggestion. But, in relation with these ideas and following the context of " each inch is gold", I'd like to know your opinion with respect to the possibility of converting the low C keys in both sides to combined keys Bb/C (pull/push )

Edited by Isel
the link seemed to fail

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6 minutes ago, Isel said:

Ha ha...I was just thinking about that question Brian.:D.. so this is my following comment:

Brian, lately I am thinking about your ( and other valuable suggestions) proposals to add some buttons to a 46 key arrangement , that were explained in the interesting post Don Taylor opened in 2015 ( here). I like your 50 keys suggestion. But, in relation with these ideas and following the context of " each inch is gold", I'd like to know your opinion with respect to the possibility of converting the low C keys in both sides to combined keys Bb/C (pull/push )

 

Hi Isel, do you mean this topic?

 

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21 minutes ago, Isel said:

But, in relation with these ideas and following the context of " each inch is gold", I'd like to know your opinion with respect to the possibility of converting the low C keys in both sides to combined keys Bb/C (pull/push )

 

This sounds similar to @Little John's idea of bisonoric buttons on his Crane duets. In that case, you will almost certainly want an air button that is accessible while playing.

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32 minutes ago, Isel said:

Ha ha...I was just thinking about that question Brian.:D.. so this is my following comment:

Brian, lately I am thinking about your ( and other valuable suggestions) proposals to add some buttons to a 46 key arrangement , that were explained in the interesting post Don Taylor opened in 2015 ( here).

 

Ah, I think maybe you meant this topic:

 

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47 minutes ago, alex_holden said:

bisonoric buttons on his Crane duets. In that case, you will almost certainly want an air button that is accessible

38 minutes ago, alex_holden said:

 

Ah, I think maybe you meant this topic:

 

Exactly! This is the topic Alex! (I have modified the link, and I think It works properly now)

...And... in relation with bisonoric and air button...¡¡ touché Alex!! 😄

Edited by Isel

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7 hours ago, inventor said:

51 buttons for a Hayden 

A propos Brian...which key would be your 51th (assuming there is no air button) ?:

high C# LFH?, low C# RHS?, high E RHS?, none of these?

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Co-opting the air button seems to be the best solution for an existing box but what about some of the rarely (or never) used notes elsewhere?  For a chromatic instrument (or uber-chromatic such as duet with the overlap region) there are bound to be duplicated or little used notes ( depending on individual play).  I'm thinking at the high end of the range and in the overlap area.  Suppose one takes an indirect approach and combines two less used squeekers for bisonoric, freeing up a button for the pirated air or something more desirable?  I could see merging 6 high notes into 3 buttons and changing a couple of notes in the duplicated mid-range.  Both operations would be at the margins of the pattern.  

 

 

Edited by wunks
make more sense

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😂

More little wild horses Erik?

I suppose this option admitt an amount of possibilities, each of them particularly suited to each player depending on his personal style, as you say.

As I know, Litle John has satisfactory experience  with bisonoric buttons (my comments being originated in his experience!)

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35 minutes ago, wunks said:

Co-opting the air button seems to be the best solution for an existing box but what about some of the rarely (or never) used notes elsewhere?  For a chromatic instrument (or uber-chromatic such as duet with the overlap region) there are bound to be duplicated or little used notes ( depending on individual play).  I'm thinking at the high end of the range and in the overlap area.  Suppose one takes an indirect approach and combines two less used squeekers for bisonoric, freeing up a button for the pirated air or something more desirable?  I could see merging 6 high pairs into 3 buttons and changing a couple of notes in the duplicated mid-range.  Both operations would be at the margins of the pattern.  

 

 

Well, yes. The important issue being "depending on individual Play." Both Little John and I had commissioned Alex to build custom Cranes, and due to the "every Inch Counts" issue, both of us had to do without one or two button/reed arrangements. Depending on individual Play, of course, so our layouts differ from each other.

 

So you have to look at your own playing habits very seriously, determining which reed you can do without at the least pain resp. which one makes sense for conversion to bisonoric playing. After that, pretty much everything is possible.

 

Re the original q: I own three Cranes two of which have air Buttons. Like Jim, I almost exclusively use them to get the bellows to start and final positions (although I recently discovered that there are (albeit limited) possibilities to incorporate the air button into duet playing). Still I consider removing one set of reeds from the third one altogether for a custom air button, simply because it can be annoying to have to create noise just to begin playing (for example is session or ceilidh contexts). 

Edited by RAc

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31 minutes ago, RAc said:

So you have to look at your own playing habits very seriously, determining which reed you can do without at the least pain resp. which one makes sense for conversion to bisonoric playing. After that, pretty much everything is possible.

I agree Rüdiger. Even more when the decission is in your hands and there are no plans to buy another instrument in the future.

Thus, I am taking into account seriously all your suggestions. Thank you!!

 

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Yes, I'm just suggesting possibilities. I've reduced my own subjective desires to 2 or 3 buttons and have yet to make a move.  

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1 hour ago, RAc said:

 

 

 

 

Re the original q: I own three Cranes two of which have air Buttons. Like Jim, I almost exclusively use them to get the bellows to start and final positions (although I recently discovered that there are (albeit limited) possibilities to incorporate the air button into duet playing). Still I consider removing one set of reeds from the third one altogether for a custom air button, simply because it can be annoying to have to create noise just to begin playing (for example is session or ceilidh contexts). 

How about keeping one of the reeds and having a uni-directional air button?

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Good point Erik!!

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Quick answer to Isel's 51st button question -  "none of these" !

Once you go beyond 46 buttons, I would put the priority on adding the Key of Bb to the easy-peasy options. Certainly players of traditional dance music in New England  U.S.A. think so. This is the thinking behind both the Beaumont and Peacock. There might be different priorities in Spain ?

For the 4 buttons to make 50, I would go for adding a low Bb & eb to the left hand side and the corresponding bb and eb' at the bottom left hand  corner of the right side. These to be added into the center of the  reed-pan of an existing instrument.  However if starting from scratch on a newly made instrument: I would recommend  putting both the low Bb and c  on a deeper box in the center of the reed-pan, with the corresponding right hand notes similarly on the right hand; then putting the eb & eb'  round the edge of the pans.

Button  51 :-

I would add a high eb" to the right hand side. This would repeat the d#" that you already have, but greatly facilitates playing in the key of Bb .  So where would this go you may ask ! If you look inside the right hand of a Wheatstone 46 button concertina you will see that there are two very small blank spaces at the top left hand side. Added together there is sufficient space to add another  note round the circumference of the reed-pan.  To do all this really requires a whole new right hand reed-pan, and a rebuild of the right hand action with a certain amount of criss-cross action to prevent action levers being too short.

I am totally aware that doing all of this will totally negate any guaranty you have on the instrument.  You asked me a question and I have given you my best answer. Probably if you want a 51 button in a 6.25"  hexagon, the best answer is to commission a new instrument made along the lines I suggest.

I see that another four replies have arrived since I started to type this, so other solutions may have been put forward. If you are considering adding midi don't even consider bisonoric notes, for whilst this is possible (and has been done on melodeons) it is an absolute  minefield to get it to work.

Inventor. 

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Thank you very much for your detailed and very interesting reply Inventor!😊

2 hours ago, inventor said:

I would put the priority on adding the Key of Bb to the easy-peasy options. Certainly players of traditional dance music in New England  U.S.A. think so. This is the thinking behind both the Beaumont and Peacock. There might be different priorities in Spain ?

 

This makes sense if I was focused to spanish folk, as tonalities that dominate (conditioned by the pipes in the north, and the "dulzaina" in central Spain) are mostly C, Bb and F. Even actually I don't play so much these, perhaps in the future I would do.

2 hours ago, inventor said:

I would add a high eb" to the right hand side. 

Interestingly, I thought about  this key before the low Eb.   @David Barnert suggested that addition and I would find usefull to have this key instead D#.

 

2 hours ago, inventor said:

it is an absolute  minefield to get it to work.

Re bisonoric: Do you refer to difficulties in order to properly include these keys whiles playing?

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3 hours ago, wunks said:

How about keeping one of the reeds and having a uni-directional air button?

 

One of the many "everything is possible" variations. Wouldn't work for me personally (I'm not a bisonoric person. If I ever need a note, I don't want to have to think about in what direction I have to work the bellows to get the note. A "Note x on push and empty on Pull" to me is just as bad as "Note x on push and Note y on pull." I sometimes face the situation when a single reed is clogged and thus I have the note only in one direction. It's a PITB).

 

But for some people like Little John, it's not a problem... 

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Regarding bisonoric  buttons I had confused myself into thinking that you also intended to add "Midi" to the concertina.  However I see that Midi was only required in the thread that Don Taylor referred back to. I still would not  advise them on a Duet concertina. I have a couple at the top end of my large (69 button) concertina, and often play them in the wrong direction ! 

Inventor.

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