Allowing handrail to slightly rotate in Hayden?

[wunks]

Yes, my crude contraption defies human comprehension!  Yours is much better.  If you swivel one end toward the buttons you will swivel the other end away.  Would this compromise playing at all?  What about moving the swivel point further toward either end? 

[Isel]

Yes Erik, I guess making any swivel in an exagerated way would compromise playing, probably.

But that is not what I have in mind. ?

Neither exagerated swivel nor ultra- complex fingering.

  I just look for some "minor" adaptations to take certain advantage in comfort and playability, if possible,  as finally a compromise has to be accepted when you choose a particular type slant (or not), pr some specifications of the hand bar, or some spacement of keys, etc.

 

I took the second picture quickly this morning, after that I realized some uneven things, sorry: the keyboard is so much slided to the left (it should be centered), and   the anchor point of the strap in the thumb end should be a litle more to the left, in a place that results in a more natural fitting to the hand (that would coincide more or less with the end bolt location). 

[Isel]

Just for fun 

[Isel]

Ops!...problems when uploading files: the upload box shows "Queued"...but nothing happens after that...

I will try to use url-links to Drive:

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1We9FyCd-OwfyvfAhmcudnSLM1TVPvXEX

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dA_gGWwXwjV5yUosksxS2tw7ORmE2aDt

https://drive.google.com/open?id=18pvrFnpoRQYuN0l7ORPV_qg2K3TV7YN-

Edited October 12, 2019 by Isel

[Little John]

On 10/1/2019 at 11:49 AM, wunks said:

Little John, I think, has made the observation that the contact and thus the leverage through the hand rest is mostly if not all at the base of the pinky.  This may vary with your style of play but is true for me.  Having moved my hand strap behind the base of my thumb ( left hand only for now) I find the enhanced and desirable (for me) freedom of movement stifled by the hand rest.  I propose replacing it with a sort of bollard/saddle at the leverage point.  Bring on the wild horses!

 

It's true that is where the main point of contact is with the hand rest, but probably the strongest point of contact with the concertina is with the thumb end of the strap (not hand rest). The key, in my view, is to have the straps reasonably loose so that you can slide your hand in a bit if needed to reach particular buttons.

 

In my (limited) observation of Hayden players it seems they don't use the little finger much if they can avoid it; but when they do they slide their hand through as described above. Take a look at the videos of Beaumont players on the Button Box website, and look closely at about 30 seconds in on the first video - you'll see what I mean.

 

LJ

[Isel]

Very good example John!. And, indeed, Aaron Marcus slides his hand and also rotate it a litle bit to play two octave buttons simoultaneously (the index finger pressing the lower button). Apart from reaching outer buttons, my initial question was focused to allow the hand to swivell in both directions at some degree.

At least for me, it is more challenging to try two octave buttons at time whith the index finger pressing the higher button... With the standard hand strap design, when I  try this fingering, my thumb finger does find an obstacle against the point where the strap clamps to the handrail, so I can not rotate my hand in enough degree to reach the desired finger positioning. The "integrated" hand-thumb strap proposal that I am experimenting with allows for this fingering and, due to my hand width,  my feeling is as I had my hand "in a glove".

Recently @Łukasz Martynowicz showed me a video from  @tona , and he seems to have (at least in the right side) both hand and  thumb straps in his duet (the hand strap being clamped to the sides of the concertina, instead to the ends of the hand rail).

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

1 hour ago, Little John said:

 

It's true that is where the main point of contact is with the hand rest, but probably the strongest point of contact with the concertina is with the thumb end of the strap (not hand rest). The key, in my view, is to have the straps reasonably loose so that you can slide your hand in a bit if needed to reach particular buttons.

 

In my (limited) observation of Hayden players it seems they don't use the little finger much if they can avoid it; but when they do they slide their hand through as described above. Take a look at the videos of Beaumont players on the Button Box website, and look closely at about 30 seconds in on the first video - you'll see what I mean.

 

LJ

I do use my pinkies quite often - for low bass in four finger chord accompaniments on the left side and for sharps in chromatic melodies and as an intermediary finger in some downward chord progressions. This is why I use thumbstraps, my handstraps are so loose, that I don’t have any point of contact with hand rail - if I have to make a silent squeeze I rest one of my fingers on the board. Switching hand position in handstrap is IMHO key ability on Hayden.

[wunks]

I still can maintain control with the strap across the base of the thumb and I do play with a loose strap ( on that hand, for now).  The added incentive for me is to bring the thumb into play for the lowest notes.  I don't know about other duets but for the Jeffries, the lowest notes are bottom row far right with an additional mid range F# thumb key ( on one of mine but not the other) which means dropping the index finger down for harmony.  Because I'm playing a two finger melody line when ever possible and using the overlap region as a pair of mini EC's, I really want that thumb for the low notes.  Thus the need for a modification of the hand rest.

[Isel]

2 hours ago, wunks said:

I do play with a loose strap

In my prototype the hand strap also would remain loose enough to move the hand either up/down or swivelling. But in this context I have found a soft thumb loop would greatly improve the bellows control with scarce affection on hand freedom. Incidentally, I have discovered this system allows to loose the hand strap to the extend you want (well, within a secure margin, of course) because you can easily use the thumb to adjust the entire tension of the system, by spreading laterally the thumb.

[wunks]

Yes our objectives differ somewhat but sharing our conjectures is very helpful.......?

[Isel]

Of course Erik!. I am very grateful to everyone that have participated

[Isel]

A more ellaborated proposal

 

[alex_holden]

32 minutes ago, Isel said:

A more ellaborated proposal

 

Hi Isel, are the two blocks intended to be fixed at that angle or pivoting freely around the single bolt? Is the thumb strap length adjustable? Have you considered adding a right angle metal plate like in the English concertina thumb strap?

[Isel]

Initially, the single bolts in both bloks have the only aim of allowing me to  move them easily, looking for their best location (I can move them in all directions, and fix them at the desired location). At final, I think both blocks should  be fixed (or not?...uhhhmm!).

The thumb plate is parallel to the keyboard. But yesterday I incidentally discovered that swivelling the pinkie block to that angle does not constrain hand movement, but the curved design of the block allows an additional nice point of contact of the block with the base of the hand (if desired, by example: I think this additional contact could aid to control the instrument whiles playing stand up).

I have noticed I only would need a 3 cm wide pinkie block .... the additional lengh of the block (up to 6 cm) had aestethic purpose...But placing it at an angle lead the entire lengh of the block to have an utility! (if desired, because whiles playing sitted my han would rest nearly exclusively on both thumb and the pinkie margin of the palm).

 

And yes, both the thumb and hand straps are adjustable. The thumb strap adjust (a few mm margin to adjust is enough) can be done by placing a little rounded pin or hook in the righ side (even create them directly from the wood block....). This would, in addition, allow the right thumb strap clamp to swivel.

 

8 hours ago, alex_holden said:

Have you considered adding a right angle metal plate like in the English concertina thumb strap?

 

Uhm..No Alex, I think that angle metal plate would be an obstacle to the thumb movements. This integrated thumb-hand strap system is nicely confortable to me, and seems to allow a lot of hand freedom with a lot of control at same time (the "black" bracket that links both straps is not only cosmetic)   ☺️

Edited October 29, 2019 by Isel

[Isel]

Ah Alex!......probably the "banana-shaped" suggestion for the handrest that you made could have had its reflect in this design at some extent  ?

[alex_holden]

33 minutes ago, Isel said:

Ah Alex!......probably the "banana-shaped" suggestion for the handrest that you made could have had its reflect in this design at some extent  ?

 

I was thinking the straps look like they are made from a pumpkin. ?

[Isel]

They are so sweet

?