John_D Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) I'm very new to the world of concertinas and to begin I bought this Italian anglo (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) for $67 just to start. Now out of the box, it sounds fine, the only issues are the buttons. Most are sagging but that isn't the real issue. 2 keys, one on each side, are stuck inside the panel. Now before I tinker with this instrument and open it up I want some information from people more experienced than I. Also, would it be helpful to know the brand? I can't find anything on this instrument of when it was made or who made it. Another worrying thing is a rotate the instrument there seems things are loose in it, like particles of something. Making it sound a bit like a Maraca Edited August 23, 2019 by John_D New information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hare Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, John_D said: I'm very new to the world of concertinas and to begin I bought this Italian anglo (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) for $67 just to start. Now out of the box, it sounds fine, the only issues are the buttons. Most are sagging but that isn't the real issue. 2 keys, one on each side, are stuck inside the panel. Now before I tinker with this instrument and open it up I want some information from people more experienced than I. Also, would it be helpful to know the brand? I can't find anything on this instrument of when it was made or who made it. Welcome aboard! We've discussed elsewhere the possibility that this might be a Renelli. Look at this thread which might give you some ideas about how to deal with the 'sagging' buttons. The 'sticking' ones are a different matter, but I'm sure some of the real experts here will be able to give you some advice. Edited August 22, 2019 by lachenal74693 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 1 minute ago, lachenal74693 said: The 'sticking' ones are a different matter, but I'm sure some of the real experts here will be give you some advice. It is probably the same problem, if the rubber has gone altogether then the button will stick inside the ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_D Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Don Taylor said: It is probably the same problem, if the rubber has gone altogether then the button will stick inside the ends. Any tips on opening a concertina up and replacing the tubing? I don't want to cause any damage to the instrument when I'm trying to fix it. Based on the thread lachenal74693 posted I can probably find some flexible tubing at my local hardware shop. I just need to know the diameter. Edited August 22, 2019 by John_D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 The main problem, especially if the tubing is perished, is getting the buttons to stay upright and aligned with the holes when you try to put the end back on. I have usually managed, with some suitable cursing, to get it back together with aid of a thin stick (a BBQ kebab stick) to reset any errant buttons. Other folks say to invert the whole thing so that the buttons hang down and offer the end upwards on to the buttons. You cannot do much damage to your concertina by taking the ends off to have a look, but only remove one end at at a time. There are lots of historical posts here about this type of action mechanism - Google the site for "Stagi action": site:concertina.net Stagi action You do not have a Stagi but the action on most Chinese (they all have fake Italian names...) made concertinas is a copy of the Stagi action. PS. I cannot see any of your pictures, if you are using Google Photos or Drive than you should create a shareable link to post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hare Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, John_D said: I'm very new to the world of concertinas ...things are loose in it, like particles of something. Making it sound a bit like a Maraca Can see the picture now. This article contains hints on how to fix problems other than the buttons and how to open the thing up without damaging it. Could the 'maraca' effect be caused by valves which have become detached from their reeds rattling around? But the OP says that it sounds OK, so probably not? The final short paragraph is instructive? Is it Italian-made ('early') or Chinese-made ('late') ? If it is a Renelli, is that a model name rather than a manufacturer's name - is it made by Bastari or some other manufacturer? Edited August 23, 2019 by lachenal74693 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 could be Italian = "early", and pieces of tube from a customary soap dispenser will do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_D Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 5 hours ago, lachenal74693 said: Can see the picture now. This article contains hints on how to fix problems other than the buttons and how to open the thing up without damaging it. Could the 'maraca' effect be caused by valves which have become detached from their reeds rattling around? But the OP says that it sounds OK, so probably not? The final short paragraph is instructive? Is it Italian-made ('early') or Chinese-made ('late') ? If it is a Renelli, is that a model name rather than a manufacturer's name - is it made by Bastari or some other manufacturer? I did open it up last night, just taking the face plate off the bellows and the bellow are in good condition! Nothing seems wrong with them. Now the reeds, I don't know what there supposed to look like but I took a picture just in case. I couldn't get into the valve mechanism due to not have a small enough screwdriver for the second set of screws. Are those strips attached to the metal supposed to be curved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 32 minutes ago, John_D said: Are those strips attached to the metal supposed to be curved? No, curved means they are in a state of deterioration, which will most likely cause malfunction in two ways: 1. the opposing reed will start rather quiet, reaching its full volume only after a "flap" noise 2. the valve might vibrate on its own when playing the reed underneath. Those valves have to be replaced. Best wishes - ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_D Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Wolf Molkentin said: No, curved means they are in a state of deterioration, which will most likely cause malfunction in two ways: 1. the opposing reed will start rather quiet, reaching its full volume only after a "flap" noise 2. the valve might vibrate on its own when playing the reed underneath. Those valves have to be replaced. Best wishes - ? What exactly are they and how can one replace them? I haven't heard any buzzing when testing the instrument and some just don't have that flap at all. Would it help if I posted a video of how the instrument sounded? Edited August 23, 2019 by John_D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 Looks like a Bastari: https://images.app.goo.gl/nvjT6VYKmcTMYiKe8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Molkentin Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 Bastari, Stagi, Hohner (I have one of the latter brand) - it does not really matter..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 38 minutes ago, Wolf Molkentin said: Bastari, Stagi, Hohner (I have one of the latter brand) - it does not really matter..... Bastari and Stagi are basically the same. But some Hohner-branded concertinas were made in Italy by Bastari/Stagi and others (more recently) were made in China. In my experience the Chinese Hohners are worse than the Italian ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 6 hours ago, John_D said: What exactly are they and how can one replace them? I haven't heard any buzzing when testing the instrument and some just don't have that flap at all. Would it help if I posted a video of how the instrument sounded? Yes, that would help. And I wouldn't worry about the valves until you have replaced the button sleeve tubing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_D Posted August 24, 2019 Author Share Posted August 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Daniel Hersh said: Yes, that would help. And I wouldn't worry about the valves until you have replaced the button sleeve tubing. I think three of the buttons are out of tune and I'll tackle that after the buttons themselves are fixed https://drive.google.com/file/d/10t4h2FRda6EgyhR1rWz5x_rL-4p_2Z8P/view?usp=sharing I can't share on here directly due to it being too large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Taylor Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 Fix the button sleeving first and then record a new file. Right now multiple reeds are sounding which might be because one or more buttons are not closing their pads completely, probably because the sleeves have gone. Buy yourself a small enough screwdriver to get the ends separated properly so that you can see what is going on with the action mechanism (the levers attached to the buttons that raise and lower pads over holes in the action board). The holes, when open, let air pass over the reeds causing them to sound, if some of them are sticking open then multiple reeds will sound. Until the action mechanism is fixed there is little point in chasing other issues. Take some pictures of the action and post them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hare Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Don Taylor said: Fix the button sleeving first and then record a new file. Right now multiple reeds are sounding which might be because one or more buttons are not closing their pads completely, probably because the sleeves have gone. Buy yourself a small enough screwdriver to get the ends separated properly so that you can see what is going on with the action mechanism (the levers attached to the buttons that raise and lower pads over holes in the action board). The holes, when open, let air pass over the reeds causing them to sound, if some of them are sticking open then multiple reeds will sound. Until the action mechanism is fixed there is little point in chasing other issues. Take some pictures of the action and post them here. I wonder if the multiple reeds sounding might make you think that the reeds need tuning, when maybe they don't? That's a bit speculative, but that problem is further down the road, after the buttons are fixed. If multiple reeds continue to sound, maybe that's the time to look at the valves, (not sure about this, but if some of them have fallen off, this might also be causing multiple reeds to sound?). And buy yourself a copy of David Elliot's Concertina Maintenance Manual - available here. It contains detailed instructions and copious diagrams telling you how to go about all these 'little jobs'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted August 24, 2019 Share Posted August 24, 2019 4 hours ago, Don Taylor said: Fix the button sleeving first and then record a new file. Right now multiple reeds are sounding which might be because one or more buttons are not closing their pads completely, probably because the sleeves have gone. Buy yourself a small enough screwdriver to get the ends separated properly so that you can see what is going on with the action mechanism (the levers attached to the buttons that raise and lower pads over holes in the action board). The holes, when open, let air pass over the reeds causing them to sound, if some of them are sticking open then multiple reeds will sound. Until the action mechanism is fixed there is little point in chasing other issues. Take some pictures of the action and post them here. Good advice here from Don. It sounds to me like the notes (different notes on push and pull) from just one button are sounding all the time, probably because the pad isn't closing as Don said. Might be because of a deteriorated sleeve, but it could be a spring problem. 35 minutes ago, lachenal74693 said: I wonder if the multiple reeds sounding might make you think that the reeds need tuning, when maybe they don't? That's a bit speculative, but that problem is further down the road, after the buttons are fixed. If multiple reeds continue to sound, maybe that's the time to look at the valves, (not sure about this, but if some of them have fallen off, this might also be causing multiple reeds to sound?). And buy yourself a copy of David Elliot's Concertina Maintenance Manual - available here. It contains detailed instructions and copious diagrams telling you how to go about all these 'little jobs'.... I don't think this is a valve problem. And Dave Elliott's book won't help you with this kind of concertina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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